Sleep is the time for our mind and bodies to reset, regenerate and repair damages that may have accumulated during the day. Undoubtedly, this is a part of our daily routine that is important and can impact our health. Sleep affects our emotional well-being and mental ability, as well as our physical health and energy levels. If you want to face the day with your best self, a good night’s rest is what you need. Thus, we need to learn how to optimise our sleep.
Unfortunately, millions of people worldwide suffer from sleep problems, including snoring and sleep apnoea. These disturbances in your nightly rest prevent you from making the most out of your sleep. Furthermore, you most likely don’t have the tools or knowledge on how to optimise sleep. Frances Anderson is with us today to share her story on how she decided to create a solution for sleep problems after not being able to find one for her snoring.
Listen to this episode of Pushing the Limits to hear more about Frances’ tips on how to optimise sleep.
Visit the Patney website for more information on Frances Anderson, her story and her products.
Use the code: Lisa for a 5% discount on Patney products for a good night’s sleep!
For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.
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‘So it's opening up their whole airway. Because when we’re snoring, you know, we have a normal pillow [and] we’re snoring, what's actually going on [is]—there we are tipping our chin forward onto the chest and blocking off these airways.’
‘And so what often happens is people get woken up by their own lack of breathing, and they've been constantly pulled out getting into that deep sleep phase, which is just absolutely crucial if you want to avoid neurodegeneration.’
‘If you're not sleeping well and getting good quality sleep, you're really going to age quicker. You're really going to damage your cognitive abilities, your memory. And you know, neurodegeneration is a likely chance of it happening further on down the road.’
‘But it's also a relationship issue too. You know, you've got the clinical issues with habitual snoring and sleep apnoea. But you've got relationship issues, too, that there's more than one person involved with this.’
‘But we knew we had a product that was going to solve a problem. And that problem was habitual snoring and mild to medium sleep apnoea.’
‘Without good sleep—all of those things: you can be eating perfect, you can be exercising perfect. But if you’re sleep’s out, you're not going to get the optimum out of your body.’
‘So it’s a wellness product, absolutely… While it was developed for snoring, you don’t have to be a snorer to use it.’
Frances Anderson, the founder and Managing Director of Patney, had suffered from snoring for most of her life.
She has experienced the negative effects caused by interrupted sleep and consequent fatigue. Frances could see the detrimental impact snoring was having on her health and her relationships. But it wasn’t until Frances’s husband told her one morning that she had scared the life out of him during the night because she had stopped breathing; this comment meant she was heading for sleep apnoea.
She had tried various anti-snoring products, including surgery, without success. So she decided to take things into her own hands. She set out to solve a problem that she and millions of other people experience.
Fast forward to today, the Patney Sleep Positioner pillow is no longer a dream. With the product being non-invasive, comfortable, and individualised, it is proven to control snoring for thousands of customers.
Connect with Frances and learn more about the Patney Sleep Positioner on her website. You can also send her an email at goodnight@patney.com or find her on Instagram.
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To pushing the limits,
Lisa
Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.
Lisa Tamati: Lisa Tamati, your host of Pushing the Limits. Welcome back again for another excellent episode. I hope you're going to enjoy this one. I have Frances Anderson, who is the founder of Patney pillows, to guest today. You may think, ‘What? Sounds really weird’. But this is a very important topic. This is all about sleep optimisation, how to stop snoring, looking at sleep apnea and helping improve your health through correct sleep.
So, Frances is the founder of a company called Patney pillows that has sleep positioners. And this has all been clinically tested to help people with snoring, and this is an episode around sleep optimisation basically. So I do hope you enjoy this. If at the end of this interview, you're interested in trying out one of Frances's pillows, you can use the code ‘Lisa’ at checkout for a 5% discount on the actual product too. I don't usually do episodes where it's all based around a particular product. But this invention is pretty unique in the world. And it is helping people with their health and their sleep. So I'd really like you to listen to this and get some good information if you're dealing with anyone who has snoring, anyone who has sleep apnea, if you want to optimise your sleep, then this is the episode for you.
I'd also like to refer you back to a couple of other episodes that I've done around these topics. One are with James Nestor, one with Patrick McKeown and one with James Morris: two on breathing, and one on sleep apnea. If you're interested in further finding out more about optimising your sleep. There's also one with Dave Liow, on the science of light and how that affects your sleep. So make sure you go and check out all those podcasts as well in the back catalogue.
Before we head over to the show a reminder we have launched our premium membership group, our VIP group. If you want to come and join us at the pushing the limits podcast if you want to support us getting this great content out and we would love you to come and join our membership group, our patron group. It's only a few dollars a month. You know, really is a cup of coffee a month to be involved, and we have a lot of member benefits and we would love you to check it all out. You can go to patron, P-A-T-R-O-N patron.lisatamati.com for all the information on that.
And another reminder to check out my latest and greatest longevity and anti-ageing supplement NMN, which stands for nicotinamide mononucleotide. Now this is a supplement that helps upregulate the sirtuin genes which are longevity genes in the body. Without going into all the science. If you want to check out the episodes that I've done on this with Dr. Elena Seranova, a molecular biologist, then check those out on the podcast as well. And if you want to find out about this longevity and anti-ageing supplement if you're like me and you're getting on in, but long in the tooth, and you want to make sure that you slow the ageing process down and that you optimise your your health and your vitality and your lifespan then head over to nmnbio.nz, nmnbio.nz. And I highly recommend going and reading the book Lifespan by Dr. David Sinclair, a Harvard Medical School researcher. That is why I got into this. So if you want to know and do a deep dive into the science behind NMN and upregulating the sirtuin genes in autophagy, and know all about the sort of stuff that's going to help you live a longer, healthier life, then please go and check out all those resources. Right, now over to the show with Frances Anderson.
Lisa: Welcome back to Pushing the Limits today. And I have an amazing, lovely guest. And we've actually got a bit of a backstory. We already recorded this interview and then I went and lost it all on my computer somehow. Don't ask me how.
So Frances Anderson, thank you very much for joining me again. Very embarrassing situation when you go and delete an entire interview. So I know you probably want to throttle me but, today we're going to be talking a little bit about your story and this amazing invention. I want to call it invention that you've made. Now Frances is the founder of the Patney pillow or sleep positioner. And this is going to be an episode all about optimising his sleep and why snoring is bad for you and all of that sort of good stuff.
So welcome to the show, Frances again. So I think we'll start with a little bit of a backstory. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and then why you got into this, making this invention?
Frances Anderson: Well I'm the snorer, it's as simple as that. I had tried all sorts of things, including surgery, and that lasted about as long as it took the swelling to go down, so that wasn't effective. And I've tried most things and they just didn't solve the problem. And it got to the stage where I was beginning to get sleep apnea, so stopping breathing and my husband, one morning said to me, ‘You frightened the living daylights out of me last night, you stopped breathing. You got to do something about this.’ And so I sort of walked away and thought, ‘I don't know,’ What am I going to do, I’ve tried everything’.
And so I set about trying to find a solution for my snoring. And that took a little bit of time. I have to say it's not a great thing to try and invent something to sleep on, at two o'clock in the morning you're busy trying to design this thing, how the hell do you stop snoring. So eventually I did and then I felt that I'd solved my problem and carried on working like everybody else in my normal job and then a couple of friends said, ‘Can I have one’? And at that stage I thought I was the only female that snored.
Lisa: Let's dig into that little bit for a second. A lot of people have issues with snoring and for me that's sort of acceptable. Sort of it's like one of those things, I mean sort of, ‘Yeah, you snore, so who cares’? For women it's a little bit more embarrassing and like you thought you were the only woman who snored, and you're a tiny lady, very slim and, you said you struggled with snoring even in your young years, like in your teenage years. How did that make you feel?
Frances: Well I first knew that I snored at 13 when I went to boarding school. And of course you're in dormitories, and got horribly ostracised, and found I found that incredibly embarrassing. But also incredibly stressful because I didn't know how to solve it. And you know it's fine for people to say, ‘Stop snoring’, but how? So I went to the boarding school years and but still the snoring was a problem, but as I got older it became kind of a more of a problem and but I inherited from my mother, so it's probably not quite right that I thought I was the only female that there was that snored. My mother did and she was a chronic snore and with the knowledge we have now, obviously she had sleep apnea or really bad sleep apnea. And my problem, she died of dementia, and they are now looking at links between dementia with—sorry, with chronic snoring or sleep apnea, you're starving your brain of oxygen. Because it can stop breathing as much as 100 times an hour. So sleep apnea is huge.
Lisa: And we've done a—I've got a backstory with us too with my mom having sleep apnea after her stroke and I think she probably had it before it even, and doing a sleep assessment and realising that her SpO2 levels were down at around 70% at their worst time in the night, and that she was stopping breathing hundreds of times a night and actually knocking off her brain cells at a point we you know after the aneurysm which he didn't have a heck of a lot left.
And so this work came on my radar then and getting a sleep apnea assessment and realising that she was in deep trouble and having to have a CPAP machine and this is a problem that, as you know, not really well understood people sort of think snoring is just annoying. It's not just annoying, it's disrupting the sleep of the partner, obviously, in the bed which has its own health consequences for that person as well, or the other people in the dormitory in your case. But it is also really damangeling your health and there is a huge correlation now between Alzheimer's and dementia and neurodegenerative diseases and sleep apnea. This is—hence doing this podcast because it is a very important health topic.
Snoring is not just a pleasant thing and it's not just overweight old men that snore, Which is the common sort of perception. And we had a couple of experts on the show breathing experts, James Nestor and Patrick McKeown have both best-selling authors of breathing books, Breath and The Oxygen Advantage. And they talk about, you know, just how important the breathing is to the whole health and, you know, nasal breathing and in the talk of how important that piece of the puzzle is. And, you know, they go so far as to tape the mouth shut at night, which I do, actually, in order to help with the nasal breathing, which is optimising my breathing. I don't have sleep apnea, I don't snore. But that helps optimise if you like.
So you managed though, without doing, having a CPAP machine, to get on top of your snoring. And I think a lot of people would be interested in this because having a CPAP machine is brilliant. And thank goodness for them as I don't think my mum would be here now. But they're also very intrusive. A lot of people just won't comply with them. You've got this big mask over your face. And it's a very important machine. And the invention that you've made, the sleep positioner that you've made, doesn't replace CPAP. CPAP has its place. We need those. But for certain people this can help.
So you managed to—what is the sleep positioner? What is the special pillow that we're talking about?
Frances: Yeah, well, it's interesting. It took me four years to actually bring it to fruition. While I solved my own snoring within a few months, I had only just made it out of retail materials. So to commercialise that I needed to have a molded product. And so that took even more time to be able to then move it into latex. And we chose latex because of the properties. Because it's antibacterial, antifungal, anti-dust mite, it's temperature neutral, and it’s got a long life to always make from the rubber from the rubber trees, it’s close to memory foam which is made from petroleum.
Lisa: Yeah, I didn't know that. That's amazing.
Frances: So we wanted a natural product. And when I got in touch with the manufacturer, I thought I could just show them the drawings, and they could whip me up a mold, and hey, we'd have our pillows. But no, I had to say instead about trying to cut latex and build it into a shape that could be molded. And I learned that I could only do that with a scalpel. And I saw—I had made about 60 of these and my trialists would have a gallery session and let me know, said there are wedges on all sorts of exotic and make it the right shape. So eventually then we went and got the bulk made.
So the pillow is about—we call it a pillow because—sorry, we call it a sleep positioner. But in pillow is short for your life. So it looks nothing like your normal pillow. And some people get a bit of a surprise when they see it because it's a slightly different shape. But then your normal pillow doesn't solve snoring. So obviously has to be a particular shape and design. If I said to stand up straight, you find your chest comes up and out a little bit when you do that. And so there's a shoulder pad. And so the shoulder pad lifts your chest so that you can breathe right through your nasal cavity right down and into your lungs. So it's opening up your airways, like you do when you stand up straight. And then the main body of the pillow has a magic spotlight, if you like, called the sweet spot. And by positioning yourself here, in this shoulder pad, we can control the snoring.
Lisa: So it's opening up their whole airway so—because when we’re snoring, you know we have a normal pillow and we’re snoring, what's actually going on there? Are we tipping our chin forward onto the chest and rocking off the airways? There's probably a number of reasons, people who are overweight or have a big circumference of the neck, bodybuilders and so on. They have a lot of pressure going on to the airway just from the size of their necks. So is there you know is this is this really just it's repositioning that whole airway so that it's opened up. That's the whole premise behind it.
Frances: Yes, it is. It's about good sleep posture, and about opening up your airway and it's for both back and side sleepers, and sort of half tummy sleep on it. But it's not for pure tummy sleepers. And so the shape of the pillow supports the jaw when you sleep on your side, and on your back. And of course, keeping yourself in that nice position so that you can’t easily drop your feet down. The whole thing is to prevent the feet from dropping down and cutting off your airway. And getting—ike people who wake themselves up in the night. They sometimes hear themselves snore. Yeah, but they've actually stopped breathing, and they’re hearing themselves actually gasping for a breath..
Lisa: Wow. So they've actually been working out and saying, well, you know, on the podcast that I've done around sleep and breathing, when we, when we sleep, we need to get into this deep sleep phase, which as we get older, gets more and more difficult. We have not, you know, non-REM sleep and REM sleep. And we have different levels where we're in a deep, deep sleep where we're actually paralysed and unable to move, and their body does it in order to, we have all these dreams, otherwise we'd be living them out. But when we're in this really deep unconscious state, we're completely unaware of the position of our body and what we're actually doing and what's actually happening with our circulation and our breathing and, and so what often happens is people get woken up by their own lack of breathing, and they've been constantly pulled out of or getting into that deep sleep phase, which is just absolutely crucial. If you want to avoid neurodegeneration, you need that deep sleep.
So when you're being pulled out, and you're in only getting into a shallow state of sleep, and then being pulled out again, as you have to gasp for air and wake yourself up, the body is waking yourself up, so you don't bloody suffocate, basically. And it does it very well, but it is stopping you getting that really restorative, important deep sleep happening, which is really going to have effects on things like your emotional state, your ability to deal with stressors, your ability to function properly, basically, during the day.
And as time goes on, then it can affect your memory. And then it can affect, you know, the whole neurodegeneration side of things where you're not cleaning out the tau proteins that they talk about in relation to Alzheimer's. And we're doing this, there's something called glymphatic cleaning at night. And you know, I'm not an expert on sleep, I'm going to get Dr. Matthew Walker, I hope, on who can explain this way better than me. But there is this brainwashing effect that's going on when we're in certain levels of sleep, and it's the glymphatic system. And if we're not getting that really deep, you know, continuous sleep, we're not getting that. And so we're not cleaning out these damaged proteins, if you like, and they start to accumulate in the brain. And these can lead into neurodegenerative diseases. And I've probably butchered that from a science perspective. So, but you get the whole point.
If you're not sleeping well and getting good quality sleep, you're really going to age quicker, you're really going to damage your cognitive abilities, your memory, and you know, neurodegeneration is you know, unlikely chance of it happening further on down the road as you experienced with your dear mum. So this was really crucial for you because you didn't want to go down that same path having seen your mum go down there.
Frances: No, absolutely not. But it's also a relationship issue too. You got the clinical issues with habitual snoring and sleep apnea. But you've got relationship issues, too. There's more than one person involved with this. There’s generally two people involved with this.
Lisa: The one is the sufferer.
Frances: Oh it’s the sufferer. And so it's really important to try and resolve this for your partner's sake. Because while you're not sleeping well, and you will find that he'll be tired in the daytime, really tired sort of mid-afternoon, falling asleep at night,before bedtime, if you like. And it also, just that general well-being that fuzziness in the head and and such like. But your partner is also suffering from sleep deprivation. They're the ones that have been woken on a regular basis while you supposedly sleep through.
And you know, there's that lock in the morning that says, ‘Here's your star rating from a’... Generally the partner that has to go to the spare room, because they're the one that's being disturbed. So they're having to go and get into a cold bed somewhere else in the house. And or, you know, people don't necessarily have a spare bedroom and they're sleeping on a couch to try and just actually get some sleep. So it is, it's a social problem within your own home. And, you know, it creates arguments.
Lisa: It definitely does.
Frances: It’s very disturbing and, and you've got two people feeling very tired during the day. So it is important to get both parties to get a good night's sleep. And so now and again, you may store a little, but just turn over and you know, reposition yourself on the pillow and you're satisfied again. And so we have an 86% success rate, which we're really proud of.
Lisa: Yeah, absolutely.
Frances: And you know, we've sold thousands of these now. So we know our statistics are right, because we give a 30-night money back guarantee if somebody is not happy. So we know for a fact that we have the same 86% success rate. But also we didn't go into this blindly there and just you know, hit the back with a second session. We put it through the Otago University, the WellSleep Center, at Berlin Hospital in Wellington. And a wonderful lady, Dr Angela Campbell who was in charge of that study. And it came out really, really well there too. In fact, we wouldn't have commercialised it if we didn't put all these resources into it, if we didn't believe in our product. But we knew we had a product that was going to solve a problem, and that problem was habitual snoring and mild to medium sleep apnea. We don't advertise it as a product that's going to solve serious sleep apnea because those people do have a serious condition,
Lisa: It can be a neurological thing. So in the case of mum, it's actually brain switching off in the wrong times in the night. Yeah, you know, so we can’t affect that. However, you know, like, even in a situation like with mum, I get up at four in the morning to check on her. And often she's taken the mask off, because she's had enough of it. And her argument to me is ‘Well, I'm not sleeping properly. You know, like, I'm not in the deep sleep at that hour. So it's okay.’ I’m like, ‘Mum, when you're asleep, have no idea what level of sleep you're in. And why would you think that in the early morning, you are not going to have sleep apnea, whereas at midnight, you are? This will be an extra backup system for me.
Frances: We do, we get people that buy the pillow because they know that they whip off this CPAP machine during the night. And so some people sleep with the CPAP machine and the Patney when they whip that CPAP off, they still have some protection for the rest of the night,
Lisa: Because neither—you know, like, even the CPAP machine isn't 100% coverage, you know, like it's blowing air down into your lungs, which you know, has its own certain amount of problems. You can't nasal breathe really when you've got a sleep apnea machine or at least mum can’t. And it dries your mouth out, and it does all these, it's not very nice having this you can't turn over very easily et cetera, et cetera. So it's, it is a little bit difficult having one of these. But in combination, and this is the perfect, you know, situation to be able to have it as a backup. If she does take it off in at least hopefully her chest is more open. Hopefully she'll breathe better, if not 100% perfect.
Frances: I mean, we talked before about big people being the snorers. Yeah. That's a bit of a fallacy. I believed that too. But no, I'm 58 kgs. Yeah. So I'm not a big person. And probably 25% to 30% of the sales that I make to a woman in that size bracket. So our problem is narrow airways.
Lisa: Yes.
Frances: But then if I look at it, the male, my male customers, majority of them would be five foot nine up to six foot and be in that 80 to 100 kg bracket. So they're not huge. They're not huge men. And they’re not overweight. You know, the big fellas, I don't see that much of.
Lisa: Really?
Frances: Yeah. But also, you know, if you're looking at females in particular, 42% of my customers are female, and 58% male. So that's quite a big number of females.. And also, after menopause, about 60% of women snore. But yeah, something else to look forward to ladies here.
Lisa: Yeah, we're in the middle of it. Thanks very much. It's awesome fun, this menopausal thing. So when your estrogen levels drop, and there's a big correlation between menopause and then worsening cardiovascular outcomes and so on. I wonder if part of that has to do with the sleep issues that come along with that, or whether it's because of the drop in the estrogen, which is particular for the heart. It's probably a combination of many things. But as your health starts to deteriorate because you're not getting good sleep, then you get things like, when you're not sleeping well, like shift workers for a start.
For example, you know, I've been dealing with this issue with my husband as well, he's doing shift work, shift workers die earlier. But that's pretty much a given. They are more prone to diabetes and cardiovascular, metabolic disorders and cardiac neurodegenerative disorders. If they're doing shift work where they have to be awake at night, they tend to be more overweight, they have problems with their appetite regulation, their hormone situations, all of these things are affected by sleep. So okay, that's for shift workers. And we need our shift workers because they keep the country going when we need them to be. But they need extra help. And then they also—we need to realise that, okay, so that's what's happening if you have to stay up all night, and your Circadian rhythms are all out of whack. And the rest of us get to sleep normal sort of hours. But if we're not sleeping well, again, this is going to have all of those knock-on effects.
And this is why I think this episode is really important. I don't usually do an episode with something on a particular product. But I think that this is a product that I've found that is actually going to help change people's lives. And therefore, it's really worth doing a whole episode on this because it's something that's easy to try out and see whether it works for you and see if it improves your thing, because it's the basis of all health is sleep.
As a health coach, as a running coach, before I deal with what exercise I'm going to get you to do or what nutrition I'm going to get you to eat or what times a day and all that sort of thing. I have to look at your sleep first. Your sleep is the basis. Without good sleep, all of those things, you can be eating perfect, you can be excising perfect, but if your sleep’s out, you're not going to get the optimum out of your body. So I think this is actually at the base. This is the thing we need to sort out first is your sleep. And a part of that is making sure that you're not snoring. And so I think trying their Patney pillow is a really good thing to have a go ahead if you are dealing with this.
And I haven't seen this type of product anywhere else in the world. I mean, I haven't searched the world. I'm sure there's somebody else maybe in the world has come up with something similar. But is this pretty unique?
Frances: Yeah, it is. We have actually paid into it and several countries and the major countries, because it is quite unique. I suppose the other thing I should tell your listeners about or your viewers about is that it's actually individualised. As far as we know, we are one of only three commercialised individualised pillows in the world. And so the pillow is unique to the user. And so we have an algorithm and we're developing that further and further all the time to determine what weight and size, well the size doesn't change. But what weight the pillow is, in the depths of it. So we compression test them, we know exactly what height it is. And so we measure that to the customer.
So we ask our customers some basic questions like, do they have a broad, very broad, average narrow shoulder. And if you cut them other questions like that, they don't need to measure themselves, all they have to do is compare themselves to their peers who are their height, roughly their height or weight. So we've been able to do that. And that is incredibly unique.
So our biggest customers being two meters tall and 170 kgs, so a fairly big boy. But we can cater for bigger still. And for everybody underneath that they're smaller, slightly about 4 foot 6 and about 45 kgs. So from the teeny, tiniest little lady who did snore, and through to the biggest fellows so we can cope with any body shape. In particular, we get a lot of tradies, strummers, sportspeople in particular, who have built up a lot of muscle around the necks or shoulders.
Lisa: Bodybuilders have issues with this.
Frances: We can deal with that though. So it's quite a unique product.
Lisa: Now I want to dive into a little bit the story of the name because this was a very cute story. It's called the Patney pillow. When I first talked to her I thought your name was Patney. You said it, but it's not quite right is it? Tell us about the story behind this.
Frances: My surname is Anderson, so very Scottish surname. Patney is a made-up name. My mum's—because my mum was a major snorer, and I inherited it from her. We were trying to think of what we would call the pillow. And so one day, one of my grandson—not my grandson, my mum's grandsons—walked into the house. Her name was Patch and he called ‘How you going Patneyneckers’? And she grabbed hold on for calling her that. The Patney stuck. And the grandkids used to call her Patney, and so we thought well what better name for the company and the product. We’ll call it Patney.
Lisa: What a lovely tribute to your mum. It's a cute name so the Patney pillow and it sort of sticks, rolls off the tongue quite nicely. And you know, this is the thing like you lost your mum to dementia. You were fearful that that was the track that you were going to be going on, and therefore you came up—and this is what I love the number eight wire mentality of you like, ‘Okay I've got a problem no one else can fix this for me I've had surgery I've tried every other thing there is around, I'm gonna fix it myself’. Are you very much like that, is that your approach to life?
Frances: Well I get all the things yeah. It has to be non-invasive, that was the other thing that was really important to me. Because I had tried a lot of invasive products like surgery and found that that didn't work. And so for me, it was really important that it was non-invasive.
It’s interesting we did a survey before we commercialised and asked people what was the most important thing about a product that could stop snoring and the partner said, ‘Stop snoring’, that was the most important thing, that they would stop snoring. We had a list, then it was ‘Comfort and such’ like. The snorers said ‘Well comfort is the most important thing’. For the partner, they didn't give a toss about comfort. They just wanted it away and if it's a torture chamber, I don't care you know. It's non-invasive, it's very comfortable and it has to be both for me that was for sure.
Lisa: Yeah and you know I sent you a photo of my husband using his one and you know he's loving it. He stopped snoring and that's you know improved my sleep knowing and improved the marriage because I'm not hitting him in the middle of the night waking him up because he's snoring like a trooper. And I'm worried, like your husband like when he would be snoring in and he would stop breathing and that would terrify me because I'm like, you know ‘When are you going to take a breath, are you gonna take a breath?’ And then you're like this the whole night you know worried that they're not gonna breathe. So I think it's just fantastic. I don't have to worry about that now. Now he just does the occasional sort of *snoring noises* and then when he's turning over and that's about it and then he goes back and he's good.
And he's very much like, because I, you can imagine in my household I'm the biohacking queen, right. I've got every gadget known to man. And I come home with all of these things for him to try and he's like, ‘Okay here we go again another thing that I'm going to have to add to my daily routine and regime of what Lisa is telling me I've got to do, you know whether it's from hyperbaric to ozone to you know shaking machines and all sorts of infrared light things that you stick up your nose’. And he's always like my guinea pig but he's taken to this like a duck to water.
So I was stoked because I did think he might go, ‘Nah, not doing that’ because you know very much he does that on occasion and ‘I'm not doing it’ you know. I tried to get into the mouth taping thing, that was never in a bar of that. But this is at least something that he's actually adopted. So sorry poor husband he's not here...
Frances: Yeah it reminds me of a story when I had trials when I was back in the prototype stage, and so I've given out these prototypes to the testers and I thought back about four days later to follow them to see how they were, how he was going. And he wasn't there but his wife was there and she said, ‘Oh’ she said ‘I had a terrible night's sleep the first part’. I said ‘What didn't work?’ She said, ‘No I've listened to him snore for 20 years and I thought he was dead’. So I was like, ‘What’s happened?’ ‘He's not doing it!’ Yeah, that upset you.
Lisa: Because you can get actually quite used to that sound a little bit it becomes quite comforting in a weird strange way. It's a bit like that white noise apps that you have. You turn on the white noise to help you sleep sometimes, a little bit like that. But yeah, you slept pretty quite, quickly if they’re not snoring.
So Frances, where to from here for your company? We're going to share the links and so on in the show notes. But can you tell everybody, where can they find out? Where can they reach you, there is a 30-day money back guarantee on this sleep positioner if people want to try it out, where can they find you?
Frances: They can find me on www.patney.com. That's P-A-T-N-E-Y dot com. And there's a wealth of information on our website about how to use. There’s not a lot of testimonials, there's blogs. And there's the story there too. But obviously, we will be offering some special through Lisa as well, too.
Lisa: Yes, we're gonna have a discount code. And we will organise that afterwards. And I'll put that in the show notes too, guys. So if you want to try this out, if you're dealing with snoring, if you're dealing with someone who is snoring, try it out, it's risk-free. Give it a go, it might change your life.
Frances: I think the other important thing too, is you don't have to snore to use it.
Lisa: This is the point.
Frances: Absolutely not. And we get a lot of people who their partner has one. And they've come back to us for one for themselves simply because it just opens up your airways, gives you good sleep posture and breathe easily through the night. And so a lot of people buy it because for more about wellness, as opposed to just snoring. So it’s a wellness product. Absolutely. As well as, while it was developed for snoring, you don't have to be a snorer to use it.
Lisa: A question, and this may be outside the remit of it, but would it help with people with asthma? Because when I was severe asthmatics, especially as a child, I used to sleep like half up, because it would take—would be less pressure on the lungs. Have you had any experience in that realm with asthma at all?
Frances: We've had people with different medical ailments, if you like, like reflux and aspirin and things like that. But we haven't done a study on that to say, ultimately, we get a lot of anecdotal evidence of it. But also people where they've got a really big cold or flu, they find it helps open up their airways as well too, during those years. So I can't say you know, from a medical perspective, that it's going to help. But because it does put you in that very good sleep position, and it does maintain an open airway, it may well help with. Like I said, we have anecdotal evidence.
Lisa: And I think, when you're trying out new things, especially when it's you know, something like a pillow, it takes a little bit of getting used to, isn't it? You'd need a couple of nights for sort of I know with Haisley, he—the first night he was like, ‘Not sure not sure’. And then after that, after a couple of nights he got used to it. And it's the same with mum’s CPAP machine. I've tried to change the mask that she wears so that it's less invasive, but she actually just wants to go back to the thing that she knows, you know, so it is very much a habit-forming thing. And once you push through that initial sort of pushback that you get when you try anything new that can help.
So what do you think—I mean, I think an 86% success rate is huge. And the 14% would just be people who aren't willing to push through that little difficult phase or just don't, you know, aren’t willing to try it. I bet you get a lot of partners buying them and then the person won't even try it out.
Frances: Yeah, the odd one. I mean, there's a myriad of reasons why, you know, that 14%. If I said it was 100% nobody would believe me. Yeah. Nothing, nothing is 100%. So we believe that you know, 86 is pretty good.
Some people have quite complex health issues. And there's more going on than just just the snoring. Some people will, they just can't get used to it. And some of the perhaps the older folks, you know, find that a little bit. But majority of people, it's fine. And we can’t solve everybody's problems. Sometimes plain doesn't solve the snoring problems. And they get their money back, and so there's no loss. We've tried it and for some reason, it doesn't work. There's some people who I believe have got serious sleep apnea. And I advise them to go to a sleep clinic and actually get there what's causing their problem, their snoring to be actually diagnosed and and sorted.
Lisa: Especially if it’s neurological—absolutely obstructive sleep apnea, and then there's neurological reasons for it like mum’s. Like where the brain’s been actually damaged, the brain stem’s damaged, and we can't fix it. And I've just had mum at the sleep clinic last week assessing her data because they record her data every weekend. Unfortunately, she hasn't improved everything else and your brain sort of come right but that aspect hasn't. So she can't ever get off that machine. We need it for life. And thank goodness we have access to that. So there is things, but she can still benefit from this pillow, especially when she takes it off in the middle of the night.
So I think all of these aspects—I really encourage people to go and listen to the episodes with Patrick McKeown and James Nestor. To understand more the whole, ‘Why our jaws even have developed differently than our ancestors, the different reasons for that the foods, the breathing, the nasal breathing, all of those aspects are also very crucial, important pieces of this particular puzzle. And I also did a episode on sleep apnea with James Morris, who used to own all the eating clinics throughout New Zealand and was very instrumental with us and with mum’s situation. So those are—if you're interested in this topic, make sure you go and check out those episodes as well. And try out the Patney pillow just go and order one find out. See if it works for you. If it doesn't send it back.
Frances: Well, you talk to us first.
Lisa: Yeah, find out, ask Frances all about it. See if it's going to be for you. Try it out. And then yeah, see how it goes and give us some feedback.
Frances: But the other thing is too, that if somebody does have a question, we’re only fire ways to telephone. And we've got lots of tips and tricks anyway. Because of course, we don't know what your bedroom environment is like, we don't know how old your mattress is, things like that. But we can overcome those problems as well.
Lisa: Yeah, brilliant. Thank you so much, Frances, for being somebody who thinks outside the box. And, one number eight wire mentality. I've got a problem. I'm gonna fix it. Now I'm going to fix it for everybody else, because this is exactly how I am too, and that's how I've come to do when I do. Have a problem, fix that. Okay, now I can help other people with it. So thank you very much for your time.
Frances: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you.
Lisa: Hi, again, it's me. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Frances. I actually got the code wrong. It's actually a 10% discount. If you want a 10% discount on the Patney pillow, then use the code ‘Lisa’ at checkout. I said 5% in the intro, but I got it wrong. It's actually 10%. So thank you very much Frances for the discount, and go over there and try it out now.
That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.
The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.
Failure happens to everyone; we will experience it at some point in our lives. Despite our sacrifices and hard work, we may not achieve what we set out to do. It is, however, important to approach failure not as the end of a journey but as a crucial lesson. And it doesn’t matter how many times you fail—physical, emotional and mental resilience will take us one step forward towards our eventual success and victory.
Laura Penhaul joins us in this episode to share the story of her expedition across the Pacific Ocean. She describes the preparations she undertook, from planning the expedition to gaining financial support. Laura also talks about the importance of breaking down the journey and being clear with team dynamics in the expedition’s success.
If you want to know more about the makings of strength and mental resilience in a person, then this episode is for you.
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‘There's people that can go through the same type of thing. And yet one person wakes up, being so thankful that they're alive’ they're now going to make the most of life. And then somebody else that wakes up and they're like, they wish they didn't wake up’.
‘How can I put myself in a situation which is completely unknown, that's kind of gonna make me want to give up? And I want to understand what it is we draw on when we can't give up [and] we've only got one option’.
‘It's all about perspective, isn't it? And it's all about the context that you're in. And this is the thing that I get really passionate about is, I want to optimise people's own elite performance’.
‘It is not a failure unless you don’t learn from it. And leaping sometimes is exactly what you need to do, and it's just not being scared to fall, like just knowing that, you know what, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It's got you one step further. And one step closer to finding what the next thing might be’.
‘You kind of just got to crack on and then there's no going back, you can't row backwards, sort of, it's only about having the confidence to step into taking on the Pacific’.
‘You've got to understand that there are things you can't control. So you've done everything you can control. And now the rest is up to the gods, basically. And you're going to have to be able to be adaptable and flexible’.
‘The girls hated confrontation. They weren't used to giving and receiving feedback. That was always felt like a personal threat. I just had to put myself in the barrier first. I be like, “Right, cool, okay, if you're not going to give it and you're going to say everything's rosy when it's not, I’ll pull it out”’.
Laura Penhaul is one of the world's most respected physiotherapists. She helps train many of the top athletes in Olympic sailing and the Paralympics.
Laura is known for her nine-month, 9000-mile crossing of the Pacific in a rowboat. She managed a team of four women known as the Coxless Crew; she was the expedition's team leader and organiser. The expedition is featured in a documentary called Losing Sight of Shore.
Connect with Laura through Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn.
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To pushing the limits,
Lisa
Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.
Lisa Tamati: Hi everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits once again. Today, I have another world-leading, actually world-record-holding, superwoman. Now, this lady is Laura Penhaul from England, and Laura is one of the world's most respected physiotherapists. She helps train many of the top athletes in Olympic sailing and in Paralympics with people with disabilities. She's done an awful lot in high-performance sport. But what Laura is really known for is that Laura did a 9,000-mile crossing of the Pacific in a rowboat, you heard that right. Right across the Pacific. Nine months it took and she was the team leader and organiser of this whole expedition. She got four women together to do this epic event. And there is a documentary out called Losing Sight of Shore.
And today we discuss this mammoth expedition that Laura undertook. The funny thing is that Laura hadn't even been a rower before she took this on. But because she had worked so much with high-performance athletes, people pushing the limits of endurance, and people with disabilities doing crazy things. She wanted to understand what is it that makes some people so resilient and strong, and other ones want to give up when they're faced with a trauma. And she thought, 'I don't need to wait until something drastic happens in my life, and my health has taken off me or my mobility, or I have an accident or I have something to wake up. I can actually take on some mammoth task so that I can start to understand what it actually takes and what resilience and strength is all about'. And she felt like she didn't have the right to be leading and guiding other people if she didn't have that experience herself. So she set off on a mission, what she thought would take them a year to do for a status to organise this expedition across the Pacific.
And they knew that taking it four years of preparation, we go into the, all the details of putting together such a high-performance team, it's a fantastic interview. She really is a superwoman. I'm in awe over here, I can't imagine being in a 29-foot boat for anything more than about two hours, I reckon, before I'd start going nuts, so she's pretty impressive, this lady. And before we head over to the show, just want to remind you, we've launched now, our patron program for the podcast. So if you want to become a premium member of our podcast tribe, if you like, we'd love you to come and join us here on over to patron.lisatamati.com. And we'd love to see you over, the, it's all about keeping the show going. We've been doing it now for five and a half years each and every episode takes me a long time to put together to chase these world-leading experts, to do the research that I need to do, especially when it's dealing with scientific topics, and a test takes an awful amount of time.
And to keep it going we need your help. And we wanted to give you lots of benefits too so people who do get in behind the podcast and help us provide this super valuable content to everybody get a whole lot of exclusive member benefits. So we'd love you to check it out. Go to patron.lisatamati.com for more information on that. And on that note before we just hit over to Laura, I just want to remind you about my new longevity and anti-ageing supplement NMN Nicotinamide Mononucleotide. You would have heard a couple of times in the podcast I had Dr Elena Seranova and we're going to have her on more often. She's a molecular biologist and tells us all about the ways that we can help with anti-ageing. And one of those things is by taking Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, which is a very, very powerful supplement. It's an NAD precursor that helps up-regulate the sirtuin genes, helps provide a bigger pool of NAD to every cell in the body and helps on a very, very deep level. The ageing working against the ageing process and who doesn't want to know about them if you want to find out all about it and all the science behind it, please go to nmnbio.nz. Right, now over to the show with Laura Penhaul.
Lisa: Well, hi everyone, and welcome to Pushing the Limits. Today I'm super excited. I have an amazing, amazing guest for you. I really do find the most incredible people and this lady is a superwoman. So welcome to the show. It's really, really nice to have you Laura. Laura Penhaul is sitting in Cornwall in England. Laura, how's your day going? Well, you're not going.
Laura Penhaul: Oh I was gonna say yeah no, it's been great. Do it. Yeah, it's now eight o'clock in the evening. So yeah, no, it's all good. It's been a beautiful sunny day.
Lisa: Oh lovely, lovely. So Laura is an amazing person who does expeditions and as a physio, Laura, can you give us a little bit of background? I want you to tell your story in your words, give us a bit of a synopsis about what you do and what the critical things. I mean I've done a bit in the intro so, but I really want your words, if you like.
Laura: Yeah, no props well, firstly, yes. Thanks, Lisa for having me on the show. It's been an honour because I think you're a superwoman more than me.
Lisa: Hell no.
Laura: But no I mean yeah, my background is I worked in elite sport, in Olympic and Paralympic sport for over 14 years. Sort of went to Vancouver, London, Rio, Tokyo cycles. And yeah during that kind of journey, and that was as lead physio in different sports, whether that was downhill skiing, whether it was with British Athletics Paralympic team. And more recently, I was with the British sailing team. And during that sort of journey as a physio like, the role that we have, as physios, physical therapists are very much kind of, you know, you're seeing somebody through a journey. And like when I worked with them and we've worked with patients in trauma, worked versus kind of, you know, in spinal cord injuries, and then straight to Paralympic sport, I've been surrounded by people that have been faced with significant adversity.
And it's sort of, it's always along my journey of my career, have I been fascinated by understanding the person in front of me and kind of going, there's usually two types of people when they've been thrown a massive curveball, like an RTA or road traffic accident, or something horrendous, that is completely changed their life for the rest of their life. Those two, there's people that can go through the same type of thing. And yet one person wakes up, being so thankful that they're alive, they're now going to make the most of life. And then somebody else that wakes up and they're like, they wish they didn't wake up.
And as a physio dealing with those two people, you've got to have a very different approach. And in the, kind of—to me, understanding that person that wants to give up and actually being able to change their mindset and facilitate, go shoulder to shoulder with them is really powerful. And then those people that do wake up and want to thrive, like they're the ones that have inspired me to do more stuff, because I'm like, why do we wait for adversity? Why do we wait for something to be a curveball before we then, like, start to go, ‘Oh, my God, I need to make the most of life like I’m fit. And I'm healthy. I need to make the most of life because clearly stuff could happen in an hour’s time.
Lisa: At any time.
Laura: Exactly. So that's kind of what then drove me to start to do more and more personally, and kind of a bit of exploratory expedition space. And then the real, so that led me to ride the Pacific Ocean, which is kind of you know what, we're talking about.
Lisa: You said it again, you just rode the Pacific Ocean is, I just dropped it as a, to yeah, and then I rode the Pacific Ocean. So you were into sailing and into rowing and into all of that sport, as prior, this was your thing?
Laura: No. Well, that's the thing, no wasn't in all honesty. I was, I'm kind of a jack of all trades like I love anybody, any athletes, anybody that I work with, I want to understand them. And I want to understand the sport, the environment that they're in. So when I was working with skiers, I went off and did a ski season. I learned to ski when I, and I'm somebody that, yeah, I love to do different sports and outdoors, the sort of outdoor environments. And if I was working with marathon runners, I was like, I can't fully treat them if I don't understand, if I haven't run a marathon like, to me, I need to experience what they've experienced, even in a small way to kind of get a glimpse of the environment.
So I would run a marathon, same with triathletes, and, you know, not to the extent of your, sort of did a half Ironman, and then the point was the Paralympic cohort when I was working with them. I was like, this is an area that I can't untap you know, yeah.
Lisa: Yeah.
Laura: I can do it, but I can't understand what it is to be a Paralympian.
Lisa: Yep.
Laura: However, how can I put myself in a situation which is completely unknown, that's kind of gonna make me want to give up. And I want to understand what it is we draw on when we can't give up you know, we've only got one option.
Lisa: Yep.
Laura: So I kind of, that's what I was searching for, for a couple of years of searching for something that was going to be out of my comfort zone completely and was going to be a challenge on multiple levels.
Lisa: Sure must have been.
Laura: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I guess at the time, I was doing, sort of, triathlons. I was enjoying them. But anything that was cycling, running, swimming, I felt like this would be expected and I kind of would already be a bit familiar with it. So when I suddenly heard about ocean rowing, I was like, ‘Oh my god, this is ideal'. I've always wanted to row but never did it. Then never got a chance to, so I'd never rode before. I've never lost sight of shore. Like, you know, I've never been out at sea properly, never sailed or any of that stuff. Well, a bar like going on a few trips. But yeah, not a sailor by anyway, shape or form.
So it was, I was, and that just connected, you know, when something, an opportunity comes up and you're like, ‘This is exactly what I've been looking for'. And it was a proper light bulb moment. And the thing for me, it's the one time in my whole life that I've been so focused, like, ‘I have to make this happen'. Because I know, in my heart of hearts, I know what I'm going to get out of this is going to be huge.
Lisa: Wow.
Laura: And that basically is why starting point with it, it was kind of, I didn't know how to row, I went from being a marathon weight of like, something stupid, like 58 kilos up to, I had to go up to 72 kilos to grow on mass, you know, to be not skinny, because we lose a lot of weight out there. I had to put a team together, whereas, in my personal sport, I was doing quite individual sports. So, you know, I had to work out the team cohesion, the whole team dynamics, and recruitment. I had to figure out what the boat was, get it built, like then set up this as a business, you know, so. So yeah, so the whole journey it was, I mean, now on reflection, there's so many learnings from it. But I absolutely thrive from the self-awareness piece, how much I've learned about myself, and the different perspectives. And you know, approaching that row, my approach is very much like, this is all brand spanking new. So if I can approach it with a blank canvas, if I can have a real adaptive mindset, and if I surround, if I've now gone on the other side of the table, rather than surrounding athletes, if I surround myself with the relevant expertise, how far can I get? And how far can I really experience that athlete?
Lisa: Yeah, sorry, just my brother's just come in the middle of the podcast it’s all right. There. Come on Mitch, get around the other side. Yeah, this is podcast life for you. Didn't tell your brother you’re recording.
There was so much here that I wanted to unpack. Because there was like, you just skipped over a ton of stuff. Number one, you had no idea. So what gave you the confidence, what was the little voice inside you saying, ‘I can do this’, when you're in a completely unknown sport? Like what was it that made you think, ‘Oh, yeah, I can ride across the Pacific on a row across the Pacific, you know, for nine months, and that all worked out well'. You know, how did you even come up with a concept for something so audacious?
Laura: Well, I mean, it's all about small pieces, isn't it, and kind of reaching out to those that have done stuff and those that you respect and have the expertise. So it was basically breaking it, breaking the journey down. First of all, one is that route even possible? So initially, somebody had asked me to be part of the Indian Ocean, and they were putting a team together and then I evolved it into the Pacific. And then somebody, I was like, well, actually, originally, it might have been the new ocean wave race, which just goes from San Fran to Hawaii. And I was like, well, that's not the Pacific. That's a third of it, like so if I'm going to say I'm going to row the Pacific. I want to row, can I row all of it?
Yeah. So it was then reaching out to somebody from a logistical point of view and a support structure point of view saying, ‘Is this even feasible? And what would it look like?’ And when they said, 'Yes'. I was like, right, okay. So that's route can get involved, this is what it's going to look like. We're going to need to start, we're going to need to replenish, but it's doable. But it's going to take this time frame. And then it was kind of like right, in order for me to get prepped and the team to get prepped, what's the time frame that it's going to take to do that? Let's be realistic. And I wasn't realistic. I was naive, I thought it would only take us about a year to get to the start line. And hell no. It took four years to get to start, like four years.
Lisa: Four years. That’s massive.
Laura: Yeah, so it was. But interestingly, there's so many parallels, you know, like working in Olympic sport, everything's in four-year cycles for the Olympic cycle. And so there's so much that I learned through that process of, I thought I was only going to go in a year's time. That didn't happen. We didn't have the funding. I didn't got the team, the boat wasn't finished, you know, it was like, right, I need to go again. I need to reset. I need to sort of keep the ball rolling. But I need to learn from what failures have had here. And how do I overcome them?
Lisa: Wow.
Laura: The second year, I didn’t quite have to win I thought it was but it's all that sort of stuff. You go, yeah, you can give up why it's such a clear vision with it. And the question in my head was, ‘There's going to be an all-female team that is going to do this at some point. Like, why can't it be me? And I'm sure that will happen in my lifetime'. So what am I missing? What are the things that I can't see? That's in my blind spots. And that's where I started to reach out, to pull in different people to say, right, ‘This is the problem I've got, how can you help me’? How can you see and it was that reaching out for help with the right expertise that got us to the start line? It wasn't me. It was the collective bigger support team around us.
Lisa: How did you even, like the resources and the money in the financial and the sponsorship, when you didn't have a—I mean, you had a backstory as a high-performance expert, and helping other people in training and so on. But, you know you didn't have, you weren't—there were no huge amount of resources behind you. How did you—I know what I had to go through to get to the races that I did. And that was probably a heck of a lot less than what you had to go through. How did you face that? And what did you learn on the business side of the journey, the marketing, all of that sort of stuff?
Laura: Yeah, I mean–
Lisa: Selling the idea to people.
Laura: Yeah, the money. It kind of—it’s exactly that. I think it's showing the belief, like the absolute dogged determinedness, that this is going to happen, and you know, like, I put in my own swag to it. I paid for the boat built in the first place. So I'm like, I'm gonna do this, like, do you want to be part of it or not? But I want to do this regardless. Yeah.
Lisa: So basically, how I did too.
Laura: This is not my approach. But you know, I mean, I say that, but let's face it, I was useless at kind of asking for money, like, you know, it's great, you're doing it for charities. But to ask to support me, and like our journey. I was crap. You know, I'm a physio, I like to help people. I don't like asking for help. You know, at the time, I was very much in that poor sort of leadership style. And that's a big, that was a big learning point. But then reaching out to people that do work in business and do work in sponsorship. And they were the people that then helped me to shape sort of your sponsorship deck and how you need to brand it, what's your, you know, the colours, the language, all of that type of stuff.
Lisa: Wow.
Laura: And I loved it because I mean, I love learning. So suddenly, I was entering a snippet of a different world that I knew nothing about previously. Same with like the PR side of it, I had no idea but that was great fun, and, and the business model itself, like yeah became a business and I thought it was all about the physical and that was totally not it was 10% of like the project. And then yeah, so like you say, setting up a business no Scooby-Doo about and so simplicity was reaching out to people that had been successful had done it before. And the likes of, you know, Mark Beaumont, that we've talked about before like Mark. Mark is somebody that's an elite athlete, expedition athlete, he'd actually at the time rode the Atlantic, and unfortunately, they nearly died at sea. So I'd reached out to him to learn from his experiences from the actual failures, more, I don't want necessarily the successes, but, and he then was great at providing me with a bit more of the structure for you know, the timeline, the budget that this, that in the other room.
Lisa: Wow.
Laura: How you sort of need to get the sponsorship. And yeah, so I think to me, it's about as you know, if you hold, if this is a new space and you hold an ego thinking you're going to, then you're never gonna get anywhere.
Lisa: You’re gonna get your ass kicked.
Laura: Yeah, basically, just whereas for me, yeah, well, I don't mind. I don't mind saying I don't know something. I'm happy to ask why and how and who can help…
Lisa: You can be very humble, we can tell that five minutes of talking to you, you know.
Laura: Thank you very much.
Lisa: And how did you get a team together? Because you get four ladies, you rode the Pacific and people were talking like nine months and a rowboat unsupported, like from California to Cairns, wasn’t it? It's great. Yeah. There's a documentary out on it. If people want to find out we'll work out with it with the link sir. And how they can get hold of it perhaps afterwards. Four ladies in a rowboat, rowing across the lake. I mean, to the average person who doesn't know anything about rowing? It sounds absolutely insane. And I, like, I said to my husband, I was interviewing this morning and I said I couldn't last 24 hours in a rowboat. I probably couldn't last four hours in a rowboat. How do you comprehend nine months like that for me? Is, I mean, I've never done anything on that scale, of that long. You know, like, the longest thing I ever did was run through New Zealand which was a sustained effort over 42 days. And that well nearly bloody killed me, you know. But that's not nine months, you know, little logistics and all that. Wow.
Laura: Yeah, but you know what, I've been, flipping heck, you know. 40 odd days that you're running the lengths of New Zealand, like that is insane. So you could have...
Lisa: That’s a hell lot easier than rowing.
Laura: It’s not though! I mean, it's all about perspective, isn't it? And it's all about the context that you're in. And this is the thing that I get really passionate about is, I want to optimise people's own elite performance, like, not comparative to anybody else, like, what's your—so what you're really is your achievement of like, 42 days and everything else you've achieved is huge. Whereas somebody else's 42 days of running, will be running a marathon like that will be—it's about that gap analysis, like, where you'd got yourself to, to then be able to take on the 42-day sort of challenge. Like that was a big old leap, but you're already like, sort of—your experiences, and you'd prepped yourself for that.
Lisa: Yes, years and years.
Laura: Yeah, and where is somebody who's on a couch, but then is setting their sights of running a marathon. That's their 42 days, like, that's their elite performance for them. And the row for us? Yeah, it was a big old leap, but it was fundamentally, it was broken down. Like I think sometimes you must have found this with the run, you're talking about there and everything else. You've got to break it down, like you certainly in the preparation phase, you've got to plan every inch and every sort of crook of it within its life so that you don't leave any stone left unturned. You feel like you're best prepared, that gives you confidence, to then have capacity to deal with the unknown when you're faced with it. So to me, that sort of, I always wanted to leave, like, at least 30% of capacity in my headspace to make sure I can react to when I need to.
Lisa: You can handle it.
Laura: Exactly, and deal with the unknown. If I mean, if we'd gone on that row in that first year, Jesus Christ, like most of it was unknown, like that. I was so naive, it was ridiculous. But by the time you know, it's four years down the line, I felt so confident in actually we've trialed the boat, we've done 72 hours, we've done a couple of weeks. We've done team testing, we've done routines, we've done steep depot, we've done the training, we've done the site support, you know, all of those, every aspect of it. I feel like we took out and then it was a case of right, well, then we just need to do this on a day and day out. And then however long that's gonna last for it's just sticking to routines, which you know, the same in whatever you do.
Lisa: The more you do the more it becomes normal.
Laura: Exactly. And then it's kind of like, Well, actually, once you lose sight of shore, whether you're out there for five days, five weeks, five months, actually doesn't make much difference.
Lisa: You’re in this shit anyway. Too far from home anyway, you've lost sight of shore!
Laura: Yeah, you kind of just got to crack on and then, you know, there's no going back, you can't row backwards, sort of, it's only about, you know, having the confidence to step into taking on the Pacific. And for us, you know, yes, we rowed the Pacific literally, but to me, it was the essence of everybody's got their own Pacifics to cross like...
Lisa: Yes.
Laura: ...our film’s called Losing Sight of Shore because it's about having the courage to lose sight of shore, like, have that sort of courage to just step away from the comfort, step away from the knowns. And like, Oh, my God, you know, that's where life just opens up and expose.
Lisa: Because you know, I had Paul Taylor, who's a neuroscientist, and ex-British Navy guy, and exercise physiologist on the show last week, and he's talking about the small bubble where you can live in or the big bubble. And the big bubble is where we all want to be, you know, where we’re reaching our potential and we are filling and where are all these amazing things that we could do. We know that that bubble was there. But we're all scared living in this little comfort zone. And how do you push outside because that outside is risk of failure, and in your case risk of dying. You know, there was so much that you put on the line physically, mentally, financially, emotionally, relationships, you know. You name it, you put it on the line for this one thing, and that is living in that big bubble and scaring the crap out of yourself and doing it anyway.
Most people have this tendency to want to be comfortable in and I see this as a massive problem in our society today is that we are all cozy and comfortable and sitting on the couch watching Netflix and we are warm and we don't push ourselves for the gloom we don't push yourself. And this leads to disaster when it comes to resilience and being able to cope because you're been through this amazing adventure and expedition and you've risked everything, you must have an inner confidence that is just—and I know that you won't have it in all areas of life because this is certainly specific. And I know how that works because I'm really good and some things and really crap in others and I'm still working on my mindset in this area and that area or whatever, we're work in progress but you when you've lifted up your horizons to that big, nothing must daunt you in a way. Like he must be like, ‘Okay, whatever is coming at me, I can probably handle it'. Because you know, inside you have that resilience, which is so important.
Laura: Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. It's about context, isn't it? Like I—you know, I'm a risk-taker, but I'm a really calculated risk-taker, right.
Lisa: Yeah.
Laura: Exactly. So kind of the Pacific seems like it's ridiculous, and it's life threatening. I mean, I didn't leave any stone left unturned. I had military guys helping us to make sure we'd sort of not left stuff unturned. We went through survival practice. We, I mean, there was everything and the amount of sort of, you know, routines we had on the boat, leashes, and kind of safety equipment was next to none. Because I was like, the risk we've got is getting separated from the boat. So I'm risk-aware, really risk-aware. And, and kind of, and make sure that sort of don't leave any stone unturned so then I feel confident to go forwards. I wouldn't just leap into it like blindly.
Lisa: Yep, you shouldn’t.
Laura: Yeah exactly.
Lisa: Because you will die.
Laura: Yeah. But I mean, it's no different if you watch, I don't think like, you know, you watch Alex Honnold, climbing free solo, you know, the El Cap, sort of the climb, if anybody’s seen that film. I mean, it's phenomenal. And anybody would, you know, you watch it. You're like, ‘Oh, my God, that's insane. He’s free climbing that like, what if he just slipped’? What if this? What if that? But look at his meticulous approach to it.
Lisa: Yeah, one hand wrong.
Laura: Exactly. But then his meticulous approach, he hasn't just woken up that day one, right. So I'm going to climb up, you know, sort of freestyle at this thing. He's like, he's been off top-roping with it, he is kind of lead climbed it. He's, kind of, known every single holding place he's written it, he’s drawn it, he’s visualising it. And he's only done it when he feels completely ready, prepped. And that actually, there's no move in that that is going to be a risk. So, therefore, he's a calculated risk-taker. And it is extreme when you watch it, but the preparedness is totally there.
Lisa: I couldn't do it. I didn't put the parachute on as I'm halfway down. You know, you do learn from that, you know. I remember going out into the race in Niger, which was 353Ks across one of the most dangerous landscapes in you know, places on Earth, countries on Earth. And we were meant to have food come from France, and it didn't arrive. And I wasn't prepared. I didn't have my own stash, I didn't, my husband at the time, my ex-husband there. He did, you know, like, and when you're doing things like that, and you end up with food poisoning, and you're, you know, vomiting and shitting your way across the Sahara. And you realise, you know, you could have avoided that. That’s sort of a big lesson and do your preparation better, you know. Don't be so cavalier with your, ‘I am going to go and, you know, run 100 miles, and I haven't even trained for a marathon yet'. No, no, you know, and I had to learn those things the hard way because I had a tendency just to dive in. And this is all exciting. And let's do it.
Laura: But then you learned that didn’t you?
Lisa: Yeah, but it's not a good way to learn in the middle of the Sahara. It’s better to learn previously.
Laura: Yeah, that is sure. But yeah, I mean, you still but you learn and I think that's one of the biggest takeaways, of whenever we talk about failure and stuff. It is not a failure, if you, unless you don’t learn from it. And leaping sometimes is exactly what you need to do, and it's just not being scared to fall, like just knowing that, you know what, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. It's got you one step further. And one step closer to finding what the next thing might be.
Lisa: Yeah.
Laura: So yeah, just it's having that like you say, that the sort of the robustness, the resilience or whatever it is to bounce back to kind of jump back up to ask the questions. ‘Well, why didn't that work? And let's try it a different way', or learn from it and do something.
Lisa: Yeah, like you said, You reached out to Mark and he'd had, you know, nearly died and had actually failed in that particular expedition, done lots of other crazy stuff, but you know, and that one and it is those things like you are risking failure and you have to understand it from the outset. That you can take care of all the things you can prepare. You can get everything and you're still risking because, if this was easy, everyone would be doing it. And you have to be okay with the—this is something I try and get my athletes to understand. When you're actually done the work, you've done the boulder, you've done the—all the hard stuff that you knew now standing at the start line, that's actually to have time to celebrate and go, you know, ‘I've done the hard work. Now it's up to whatever's going to come my way'. And like you say, being able to adapt and to have the flexibility to take whatever's coming at you, which isn't always easy, but you have to sort of give up those—I think the consequences of what if, what if, what if, because if you’re constantly asking yourself, for ‘What if I don't make that time?’ You know, say you're running a marathon, or I want to do it in under three and a half hours, or whatever the case may be, and then you're so like, ‘Oh, no’, and then it takes you three hours and thirty-two and you know, ‘I'm a failure’, you know, like, hang on a minute, no, hang on. That's not how it works.
Laura: Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah, you've got to understand that there are things you can't control. So you've done everything you can control. And now the rest is up to the gods, basically. And you're going to have to be able to be adaptable and flexible. And that was one of the things in your website, talking about adaptive, being adaptive in your performance. And I think that's a really good thing because we cannot control like… You can be having a bad day at the office and get up and you feel sick and your immune system’s down and you've got your period and you've, you know, whatever the case may be. And you weren't bargaining with that, you know, so you have to be able to work, ‘I need to still go because there's no way back. How do I deal with it’? You know?
Laura: Yeah, and I think it's a really valid point. Because I mean, even in the row halfway through, and it's in the films, it's not kind of confidential stuff. One of the girls, like, she just completely changed her personality, right, because that was exactly the problem. She thought she could control the boat. She thought, you know, she was a rower. Out of all of us, she was somebody that actually had rowed since she was a kid and stuff. She thought ocean rowing was, you know. She didn't want to lose the passion. Unfortunately, yeah, it killed her passion. She didn't know then, she lost the sense of identity, all of that stuff.
Lisa: Oh yeah, real tough.
Laura: Yeah, awful. And, but because she was trying to control the boat, you know, like, the current, the wind was against us, like, those are things you cannot control. It’s a one ton boat, not one person is going to be able to control moving that in the direction you want it to go in. And so, but it was the collective of the team that enabled us to be able to rally around and understand, first of all, recognise the change in personality, it was a behaviour, it was yeah, there was something underlying. It was not her—well, it was, but there was something emotional that she couldn't verbalise straightaway. So hence, she just changed her personality type.
Lisa: Wow.
Laura: And then it was like the strength of the team to be able to rally together to support that. So kind of come at it from the right approach that she was able to share it, to then collectively go, we just need to see a different perspective on this stuff. And I think that's where, you know, a vast dynamic sort of team, you know, a diverse team sorry is what I meant, has got so much strength in it, because you know, what, when you see it through your own lens, there's only sort of one way. Whereas if you've got some diversity there, I just think it brings a different perspective. And suddenly, you're able to see, you can't control the uncontrollable, you know, you can only control the controllables. You can't control what's out of control.
And those things are the weather that is, you know, yes will prevent being ill or injured. But that might well happen. That, you know, is what it is. And if the boat sort of fails, but you whatever, then those are only three things that are going to be out of our control. And if anything happened there, then I wouldn't be. I would have been upset, I would be upset, but I wouldn't be throwing my toys out the pram because it isn't something we could control. And if the row didn't happen, we didn't finish because one of those three things, that is what it is.
Lisa: Yeah, it is what it is. And you've done your utmost. And I mean, I've failed on different expeditions and things that I’ve done, like really fallen on my face, you know, with, you know, documentary crews there have captured all on film as you just absolutely completely faceplant. And, you know, and it takes a long time to get up again, and it knocks the crap out of you. And, you know, but it's part of that, okay, well, this is the game wherein, you know, we’re pushing the limits, and sometimes, you know, you are human and you don't have the resources or one of the things that I find really, really I'd love to and I think this probably needs its own podcast is the whole team dynamic thing. I mean, it's one thing to be a solo athlete that does things, you know, but it's a—couple of times when I've had to be in a team situation. I find it really, really tough because you were reliant...
I did one in the Himalayas, and we're trying to do the world's highest marathon ever done. And I was with a guy who was a mountaineer and used to altitude and very at home in that space. And I wasn't. And I don't—I've done a couple of things at altitude and sort of survive by the skin of my teeth. I'm an asthamtic and I don't really do well on the mountains. So take on, you know, the world's highest mountain. Good idea. And we'd be in shape. And I got sick. I got altitude sickness, and I couldn't even start my body. I couldn't even tie my shoelaces.
But the worst thing was that he changed. The person that he was down here was not the person that he was up there, and, it ended up being quite nasty, and quite, detrimental. And he's not here to defend himself. So I'm not gonna say anything too much. But it wasn't a nice situation to be in — I did not trust that if I was in the shutout there, that we would work together as a team to get through it. I felt like, now, he wouldn't do that.
And then so now I'm like, very, very always aware of if I'm teaming up with people like we've got at the moment, this weekend in my hometown, that Oxfam 100, it's 100-kilometre event where lots of just normal everyday people are doing 100Ks, which is like amazing, walking, and they're doing it in, you know, teams of four, and the staff are going to go through... And there'll be people that are, you know, expeditions bring out the worst and bring out the best in people. And you don't know until you're in the situation with them, which way are they going to go, and which way you're going to go. I mean, I can become, I've been a really horrible person on some of my, you know, with my crew on different occasions where I've just lost my shit because I'm in so much pain, sleep deprivation, motions are up the wazoo. And you just, you know, you're snappy, irritable, you know, just horrible. Afterwards, I’m heading to go and say, ‘I'm very sorry'. You know?
So how did you deal with that over nine months like that on steroids? Like the dynamic—four women—everybody's having their highs and lows at different points in there. How did you cope with that? I mean, you're obviously, you've mentioned the one person and how you helped pull together, it takes incredible leadership to keep a team like that together for nine months, no matter how wonderful you all are.
Laura: Yeah, that I mean, don't get me wrong, you still have arguments and stuff, but it was all in the preparation. And it was, we knew I mean, so it is a 29th version rowing boat, right. So it's kind of the size of Greg Rutherford's, it's got the world record for the long jump, right? So it is, kind of, his long jump is the size of our boat. So it's a really small space. And then when you're cramped into the cabin, there's two of you. And if it's stormy, then all four of you are either in that or two in each cabin. So it's a tight, confined space. So it was really clear from the outset that this team had to be, we had to be cohesive, we had to be really transparent. And something I was particularly pedantic about was, I never want to leave a permanent issue. Like if there's an issue, we need to confront it, we will have to step forward into it. We can't, I don't want any bitchiness like, there was, that was always been, sort of my approach to most things. Like, I can't stand the whole talking to other people, rather than talking to the individual that you've got an issue with. You just need to step into that as much as it might feel uncomfortable.
And I guess, working in a performance context, we're scrutinised on a daily basis, you know. We're kind of everybody's asking you why what are you doing, you know, type stuff, you've got to justify, you feel like you're under a spotlight all the time. So you start to feel this kind of separation, you know, look kind of right. No, this is they're asking me that because of the person in front of us or the, you know, the end goal, that's what it's about. It's got nothing to do with me personally. We're just trying to optimise what we need to do. So when, my, I pulled this, the sort of the team came together, a lot of it, I was like, how do we stress test this, like, we have to stress test it because–
Lisa: Hell yeah.
Laura: –exactly. And that's where I, you know, I started working with Keith, the performance psychologist. I reached out to him so I was like, there's got to be more depth to this, you know, we need tools we need to I need to know what I'm going to draw on when I'm wanting to give up like, what's going to be my go-to’s, I'm going to, I need to know how I can respond and react to different personalities and stuff and how they're going to react to each other.
So Keith was the absolute rock to the success of our journey, in all honesty. I worked with him for four years and I still worked with him. I still work with him, sorry, to this day. And Keith, sort o—he enabled us to sort of understand the differences in our personalities from the basics of just doing psychometrics and stuff, but pretty in-depth ones. And then analyzing that a little bit more and playing it out in different scenarios, and then really forcing us to kind of do the round table. Yeah, because—and the girls hated confrontation. They weren't used to giving and receiving feedback. That was always felt like a personal threat. Yeah. So I just had to put myself in the barrier first. So I be like, ‘Right, cool, okay, if you're not going to give it and you're going to say everything's rosy when it's not, I’ll pull it out'. ‘So this is what's not going so well. And this is not going so well. Right now give it back to me, hit me’, like because then as soon as I've given it they're happy to give it back to me because I think I'm being—yeah exactly. That's fine.
And then I would show them that I was learning from it because I was. And there was— I— they would call me, I would have Laura number one, Laura number two, my personalities. And they—I didn't realise that until sort of, you know, going through the row and they're like, ‘Oh my god, it's Laura number two'. And Laura number two is somebody that when she starts getting, like, tired, hungry, all of that gubbins and, and sort of just a bit over it, I start getting really assertive. I'm very tunnel vision, and my empathy just goes. Whereas normal time, like I've got heaps of the empathy, until it gets to a point…
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So like me.
Laura: And so they’d be like, all right, Laura number two. Because we then had a language that was a little bit disconnected to the personal and it made a bit of fun of it, then we sort of were able to sort of take a pause, hear it and stuff.
But we had loads of loads of methodologies that we built, we'd worked on to try and get to that point. And that was sort of to the point with there, though, is that is not to say we didn't have any arguments, because we did like, I mean Nat and I, in particular, completely different personalities. She is like a, she's a beautiful character. She is Miss Mindful, she is in the moment, and she is just totally there. She's talking about the sky and the sea and the colours. Whereas I'm Miss Planner. Like I'm already in Cannes, I'm thinking about fear, I’m planning, and what do we need to do, what do we need to sort out? So, you know, when we did the team testing before, this was during selection of the team. I remember when I met Nat, I was like, ‘Oh, god, no, we are poles apart. There's just no way', you know because I was trying to see it through. I was only seeing it through my own lens of who I was getting a rapport with.
But I brought her onto the team testing weekend, which was, I'd gone to some ex-military guys. And I said, ‘Look, we need to be tested. I need to see what we're like when we're cold, we’re hungry, really sore, in pain. You need to physically push us. You need to mentally push us'. Well. And so we did like a 72-hour sleep depot type thing, you know, in the Brackens in Wales, yeah. On reflection that was like, yeah, that was it was great fun and obviously hated it during. I remember, like during it, sort of Nat in particular, as a personality that stood miles out because when she came on to it, I was thinking oh she can come along. But she's, I don't think that I’m going to be selecting her. And then Nat was the one that, you know, she might not have been the fittest. But even when she was struggling, and she was in pain, she had a sense of humour. When I was starting to struggle, she made me laugh. And I was like, ‘Oh my god, there's not many people that can do that while I'm in that space'.
Lisa: Yeah.
Laura: And I'm like, this isn't just about me. But for the comfort of the team, like we need that. Because otherwise, I will make this too serious. I will. When it gets into it, it will be too boring and serious. I need a sense of humour in this. And she is, she's got it in abundance. And she kept us at the moment.
Lisa: Wow, yep.
Laura: As well. Like, I needed that mindfulness when we're out to sea because otherwise, I wouldn't have remembered half the things that went on and I wouldn't have recognised and seen it.
Lisa: Isn't that amazing? So looking at the strengths and differences can actually end up being the thing that holds you together rather than pulls you apart.
Laura: A hundred percent.
Lisa: And I just think in this space I have to connect you with Paul Taylor, he will love you. He's a resilience expert that I was mentioning before and yeah, I think it when you have characters and I've started to do this just with for myself even now I have these different characters, you know, there's the good me and there's bad me and the good means like Wonder Woman, she can do anything and she's amazing.
And he has all these character traits that you know I aspire to and want to have and that side of me and then the other side's a real bitch, you know, she's a horrible, cynical, selfish person and those are both of me. And I know when you put this on—Paul talks about doing like cartoon characters and putting speech bubbles on them and actually giving them life and because it puts you outside of these characters that are fighting in your head, and you're trying to be that good one you want to be, but when you're hungry and cold and freezing, and you haven't slept in three days, and you're struggling somewhere, and God knows where. And you just want to go home and cry and hide under the covers and get mummy to give you a chicken soup. Well, you—it puts it outside of you, and it helps you see what you're doing.
And even in daily things like, you know, I've been rehabilitating my mum now for five years, seven days a week. And you know, beginning first three years, it was like eight hours a day. So it was just, it was full, full-on. And then even longer than that in the first year. And I catch myself sometimes being so short and irritable because I'm like trying to multitask and trying to run my businesses and she's waiting for me and you know, like, you just find yourself snapping at somebody when you just feel like, you know, that asshole is sure is present, you know, and you're just like listening to yourself going, ‘How the hell do I get a grip on this?’
We're all human. And we're all working on this. And, you know, I go to my mum and I put her in bed at night time and a cuddle. And tell her, I say, 'You know, I'm sorry for being a bitch today, Ma. I’m sorry for snapping at you'. And she's so lovely. She's like, 'Oh, that's all right'. Like, you know. But we have moments where we're just not nice, and when you're in these extreme circumstances fad, the ones that come out, and this is a part of the dynamic thing that I find really, really fascinating in that whole resilience and teamwork, and how do you bring it all together? So, you know, we're going to have to wrap up this one, because I've really enjoyed talking to you, Laura. But I really would like to have you on a couple of times, because I think there's much more to this actual story because we haven't even got to talking about well, what was it actually like to row? How did you, you know, do, what did you actually do on a daily basis? And how do you plan for such a thing? And how do you have such a big project and deal with it? And so I'm really glad that we've made this connection, and I'm very, very keen to have you on the show again, if you, because we've really just been part one, I think.
Laura: Let's see… No, I’ll be honoured to come back on. There’s so much I think we connect with in, and we can talk about for sure, especially in that headspace how we can be… What we've both learned from the experiences that we faced and continue to learn, I think is always an exciting journey.
Lisa: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah, I'd be honoured to come back on it. It’s been great.
Lisa: That would be fantastic because I think also the work that you've done with Paralympians and, you know, people that have worked with disabilities and trauma, we haven't even unpacked that either. Because I think that, you know, we can learn a heck of a lot from people that have gone through, you know, all these dramas and so on, me, I learn every day from Mum, like, her mindset is just like, incredibly strong, resilient. And so I'd like to unpack some of that stuff as well. So Laura, thank you very much for your time today. I think you're a rock star, where can people find you? And where can they get involved in what you're doing? And, you know, do whatever you got available? Because you've got some really good lessons to share with people. So tell us where we can find you.
Laura: Yeah, I mean, on usual social media, sort of, the Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn, just @laurapenhaul. And that sort of, you know, P-E-N-H-A-U-L is my surname. So yeah, reach out to that we've also got our endurance book. So where we've sort of added science behind, kind of some of the endurance sort of focus is on GCN, which is a Global Cycling Network website, or our podcast is Endurance as well, which is where's Mark Beaumont, which I co-author on.
Lisa: So I'm very keen to meet and hopefully get on the show as well. Yeah, hook me up there.
Laura: Yeah, Keith will get you on that as well. I think you've got a lot to add and share their experiences for sure.
Lisa: I'd love to. That would be an absolute honor. Laura, you're one hell of a strong woman. I can't wait to see where you go and in the future in what you know, what you take on. God forbid is probably going to be big, and thank you for sharing. I think you have such great knowledge to share with people and you have a duty to get that information out there because this is the sort of stuff that helps people. So thank you very much for your time today Laura.
That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.
The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.
When people think about today’s guest, tenacity is probably the first word that comes to mind. Everything she accomplished today stems from her unwavering self-belief and deep understanding that you must also take care of yourself. Through this perspective, she has taught herself and countless others how to overcome challenges. And like her, we’ve encountered countless adversities. We’ve all been in a place of anger, frustration, guilt or sadness.
How do we begin to accept and love ourselves and learn to grow from it?
In this week’s episode, Kim Morrison joins us to teach us all about self-love. She shares how she questioned human existence and purpose after a life-changing event and what we should be asking ourselves whenever we go through intense emotions. Kim also tells us how to overcome challenges and trauma, and discusses different helpful processes like hypnosis.
If you want to find out how to overcome challenges, achieve self-love and accomplish your goals, then tune in to this episode!
For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.
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If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you.
If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.
My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless.
For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.
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‘And the thing I love about it is that when you realise it and have an awareness around who you are and what you've been doing, the world becomes your oyster, and we stop blaming; we stop becoming the victim, we stop being in denial, we stop making excuses for our life. And we actually take accountability, responsibility and ownership for every single thing.’
‘And I say that with a disclaimer, that it's really important that in these times of worry and fear and stress and overwhelm, that you seek help. If you're feeling like your world is closing in, you're not your own coach; you’re not your own best coach; your partner's not necessarily the best coach or mentor for you through these times, neither are your parents. So sometimes we need professional help.’
‘Often, as we talk it to someone that's listening, truly listening without trying to fix us. When you're listening, we often talk through the process out loud because I believe all humans have all traits. And all humans have all resources within them to help heal themselves. But sometimes we just need to hear it.’
‘And if we could just understand that it's at our darkest times, we actually are revealed. Your strength comes through your courage, your determination, your tenacity, your resilience is what shows up.’
‘So we know that life is ebb and flow, high and low, in and out, dark and light. If we can come to accept that, then that is self-love.’
‘So the important thing to realise is that you have to have your goal aligned with your top three values. And if it's not aligned with any of your top three values, you're going to need some integration work to bring it up there if it's something you really want. Because otherwise, that's where the excuses come in.’
‘Just keep your mind stimulated with possibility. Because it's through the possibility we have grown, and through the growth we become way more powerful individuals. And with that, we start to then look at our higher purpose, and what legacy are we going to leave in this life.’
Kim Morrison is a speaker, author, facilitator, health and lifestyle educator, self-love expert and entrepreneur. She set the world record as the youngest female to run 100 miles in less than 24 hours in 1983.
Kim has been an Aromatherapist for 27 years. She has diplomas in Holistic Aromatherapy, Sport and Remedial Therapies, Fitness Leadership and Homeobotanical Therapies in Melbourne and New Zealand. She is also a qualified Personality Trainer and completed studies in nutrition, reflexology and counselling. In 2009, Kim launched her company, Twenty8 Essentials.
To learn more about Kim, visit her website. Check out her podcast and connect with her on Instagram as well!
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Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn more about how to overcome challenges through self-love.
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For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts.
To pushing the limits,
Lisa
Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.
Lisa Tamati: Welcome back to Pushing The Limits with your host Lisa Tamati. Today I have the lovely, dear friend, Kim Morrison, to guest. Kim is an absolute sweetheart. She's a speaker. She's a six-times author, a facilitator, health and lifestyle educator, podcaster herself. She is a self-love expert. And there's so much more to come than meets the eye. She's an absolute gorgeous woman inside and out. Tenacity is probably the first word that comes to mind. In her journey and all she’s accomplished today have all stemmed from her unwavering self-belief and her deep understanding that you must also take care of yourself first and foremost. She recently wrote a book called The Art of Self-Love, which I encourage you to check out after you've listened to this podcast. Kim is also, she’s an entrepreneur, she owns the company Twenty8 Essentials with essential oils. She does a lot of mentoring, especially with women's empowerment. She has her own podcast. She's also a world record holder as the youngest female to run 100 miles in less than, in 24 hours. So she's a very amazing athlete and mother. She's also the wife of Danny Morrison, the famous cricketer, and she's just an absolute legend. She's been through a lot in her life, and she shares in this episode a lot of her learnings along the way so I do hope you enjoy the episode with Kim.
Before I head over to the show, just want to let you guys know we've just launched our premium membership for the podcast. If you love Pushing the Limits, if you love what we stand for, if you'd like to support the show and get a whole lot of extra benefits as premium members, and the list is long on the extra benefits, then I would love you to hop on over to patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com and become one of our VIP members. One of our premium members that supports the podcast and the work that we do, and helps us keep getting this great content out there and get a whole lot of benefits, as you know to be a part of this exclusive club. So we're really, really stoked to get that up off the ground and we really appreciate your support. Of course, if you give us a rating and review for the shows too, that would be absolutely fabulous, and share it with your family and friends. We put a lot of effort into this. Sometimes some of the guests we have, top scientists, top doctors and researchers. It takes often many weeks to prepare for an interview and a lot of study, a lot of reading, a lot of books and also chasing celebrity guests and people that are of note that are hard to get hold of. So if you want me to be able to keep doing this work, I’d really appreciate your support over at patron.lisatamati.com.
And while we're on that note, if you're into interesting reads, please check out my three books I have Running Hot, Running To Extremes which both chronicle my adventures running around the world doing lots of crazy stuff, succeeding, failing, having lots of fun and experiences and disasters along the way. So if you like a good novel, well, not a novel, they're actually autobiographies. But if you'd like good running stories and adventures then please check those out. And my latest book, Relentless: How a Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds is available on my website as well as on Amazon and IngramSpark and all the audiobooks and all of those sorts of places as well as Book Depository. You name it, it's out there. That one’s called Relentless and it's the story of bringing my mum back after a massive aneurysm left her with hardly any higher brain function, in a diagnosis where the medical professionals were telling me there was no way back for her at the age of 74, the brain damage was just too massive. They were wrong. This book is about empowering people. This is what this whole podcast is about. And what my whole life is about is taking control of your health, being preventative, educating yourself, and looking outside the square and connecting with the right people and, doing all that sort of stuff. So I'd love you to go and grab that book. And please share it too with your friends. If you like the book, get them to buy a copy too and help support the book. Getting it out there, and reviews and ratings for the book are really helpful too on either goodreads.com or you can just email me. I'd also love to hear from you if you are enjoying the podcast. Reach out to us if you've got any questions around any of the topics that we've brought up. We'd love to engage with you on support@lisatamati.com. Right well, now we'll go over to the lovely Kim who I absolutely treasure. She's a wonderful woman. I do hope You enjoy this podcast with Kim Morrison.
Lisa: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to pushing the limits. Today I have one of my very dear friends Kim Morrison back on the show. Kim, welcome to Pushing the Limits again.
Kim Morrison: Such a treat to be with you, my friend.
Lisa: We're just being ravishing. We couldn't stop talking to actually get the recording done, because we just got so much to like, (blah blah noise).
Kim: We almost should have recorded what we just created.
Lisa: All the cool people we've got to meet. I've got to introduce you to this person and this person. So yeah, we love swapping and collaborating and doing lots of crazy things.
So Kim, for those of you who don't know, you and most people should because you're world-famous and you're the author of six books. You're a mum, you're—you have your own amazing company. But tell us a little bit about Kim Morrison. Who’s Kim Morrison? Where are you sitting at the moment?
Kim: On the Sunshine Coast. World-famous and world tellers is what I’d say. I'm here on the Sunshine Coast. Obviously a kiwi, grew up in New Zealand, married Danny Morrison, a former New Zealand cricketer, fast-paced bowler and we had an incredible life. Then our world got turned upside down when sadly we lost a sister to suicide. And then Danny went through his own world of emotions. And as you can imagine being a top international athlete, to now a father of two, a mortgage, losing a sister, and then we lost our house. Then we lost a whole lot of money that we'd invested. All of a sudden, I think Danny started to question who the frick he was.
To watch that as a wife, a partner and someone that you love kept pushing me further down the rabbit hole and understanding what makes us tick. Why do people struggle? Why do people go through tough times? What is the meaning of it? So that took me on a journey after writing a number of books around essential oils. My passion was plants and aromatherapy and our connection to nature. And I've really, I've dabbled in a whole lot of things like nutrition and home-botanical therapy. And then lately, in the last few years, probably since writing my book, The Art of Self-Love, it's really been a quest, the last, six to ten years on, again, why do we have to go through tough times? And what does it actually mean?
So lately, I've been doing a whole lot of mind work around things like neuro-linguistic programming, hypnosis, and really getting to understand how we tick and what makes us put meaning into life situations which then can calibrate into our physiology, which then calibrates into our immunology, which then calibrates into our health and wellness.
It's been a really cool journey. Lots of ups, lots of downs. I'm not sitting here saying my life's been easy. I've been through a lot of downs myself. And knowing that often hitting the rock bottom parts of life, whilst you're in it, the worst thing is to think that there's a lesson in this. ‘Oh, my gosh, I'm going to be coming out so amazing’ when you're in the throes of it. If someone even suggests that you're going to have come out of–
Lisa: Both!
Kim: Yeah, exactly. But we all know when we look back on our lives, dear Lisa, there is always a learning, there is always an opportunity for growth. But you can take it one of two ways you can turn it into a power part of your life or a petty part of your life. You can become the victor or the victim. And that's where I love working with people who choose the victor strategy. How do I learn from this?
Lisa: Wow, the victor strategy. You either become a victim or a victor. I love it. It's just so beautifully put. We've both been through rocky roads and most people have, if you get to our age. You've had some shit thrown at you. Some of your own doing some not your own doing. And okay, what can we learn out of this? And how can we grow from this so that we just are able to carry on and we were talking before about the journey I've been on with losing my dad six months ago or seven months ago and how, trying to stand back up from that. Trying to make something positive out of the horrific situation which is still too fresh to fully have that formed. But it will be his legacy. He will have a legacy because of this. And I believe that he's helping me on the other side. I'm pretty damn sure of that. That he's making things happen and the good time. But we all go through these things and we all go through times where we think ‘I can't get up again'.
So you've written a book called The Art of Self-Love. You do a heck of a lot. You have a podcast all around the space of loving yourself. And this isn't just whoo-whoo stuff. This is real stuff. This is like, how do I accept myself? Love myself? Learn from this? Grow from this? You've had some amazing people on your show, some amazing guests. What are some of the things that you've learned just in the last year working on your podcasts and so on?
Kim: It's been phenomenal. I think the biggest thing that I love is you are the result of the five people you spend your most time with. So that includes family, and sometimes that can be tough. Therefore, the most important thing of all is—look, we can have a significant event happen in our lives that can bring us to our knees, which causes a whole lot of emotional trauma. Then we perceive that event. Then depending on our upbringing, our circumstances, our values, our beliefs, our meta-programs. How we generalize, distort and delete things. How we actually filter for what we're thinking of that meaning. Then creates a physiology within the body, which then creates a state, and then our emotions come out, which then drives our behaviour.
So it's fascinating, and the way I can explain this is if you grew up with siblings, and you had the privilege of having, say, the same mom and dad the whole way through. If you asked each of the siblings what they thought of their childhood, you may find a very different perception or meaning of what they've put onto that. And that's based on the filter system.
We all know that between the ages of naught and seven is pretty much the imprinting stage. So whatever happens usually in those naught to seven years, we create meaning. We're an absorber of information. So if you grew up with a mom that was frantic and full-on and was doing the best she could. Let's face it, everybody's done the best they could with the resources they have or don't have. But let's say that you heard, as a little four-year-old girl, your mom and dad fighting one night. They were having an argument, and let's say it was about money. Maybe your dad just lost his job. But as a four-year-old, you don't understand all of this. But you come to the door because you're worried you can hear and it doesn't feel real. And then your dad says to you, ‘Go away. This is not to do with you’. Or says something that you've heard it in a way that now means you'd now go into your room, you calibrate that into your physiology, that the next time a male or a man shouts, you've taken it to mean, perhaps you're not good enough, or it's your fault.
Now you can imagine throughout your life now, you start building scenarios. Your reticular activation system is now on alert. That now every time you hear a man or a male, argue, or fight, or scream, or yell or have anger, you’re now drawn to it. So you're now filtering for it. Because on the other side of that, because to have a problem, you also have to not have a problem. Or to have heat, you also have to have cold to understand the polarities of that. You now also know that to look for love in your life, you're now going to look for the polarity opposite of that, which is mean yelling. Or maybe it could be in the form of your boss. It could be in the form of a teacher. It could be in the form of a friend.
Lisa: You're going to be a travel expert.
Kim: So it fascinates me, Lisa, that the meaning we put into our early childhood can then become what our life becomes or doesn't become. Now the cool thing about that is when you have awareness around it, you can also undo this. If you've had the physiology or a life of not having great relationships, and you've never. If we could take you back through hypnosis or through different timeline strategies, and we can get you back to the place where you first put meaning and had a limiting belief around that, then we can easily take the lessons from it, learn it, and undo everything. And it's not about unwinding or stopping those memories. It's not about that. It's just realizing why you've created a certain behaviour to have that result. And the thing I love about it is that when you realize it and have an awareness around who you are and what you've been doing, the world becomes your oyster. And we stop blaming, we stop becoming the victim, we stop being in denial, we stop making excuses for our life. And we actually take accountability, responsibility and ownership for every single thing.
Now that means we're things that happened to us like you just said. So again, it doesn't matter what happens to you. It's your reaction to it that matters. It's how you perceive it that matters. Because we can't control their outside world as much as we've tried to change partners and kids and parents and families and friends. As much as we've tried to change people, do any of us want to be changed or told we're doing it wrong? Probably not. So it actually teaches you a way on how to perceive it in a way that you do it with love. And as far as I'm concerned, I can speak to the biggest scientists on the planet. I can speak to the most intelligent humans on this planet. And ultimately it all comes back to us desiring the ability to love and be loved.
Lisa: There is a whole purpose of us being here, I'm pretty damn sure of it. But if, without getting into the whole spiritual silence, what I've been looking at—wWhen you lose a loved one, you start looking at what's on the other side, and what is the reason of life. And I do think it is all connected to love. That is so fascinating.
I just met a Dr Don Ward, who I'm going to introduce you to, who works with trauma, and people who have been through trauma. And he said we have this like—talks about the reticular activating system and how we filter for things. I can so relate to that analogy that you gave there. And he gave a story in his life with his wife who'd had a difficult childhood and a dad who would do a lot of yelling. So then he said his wife was hyper-vigilant to that in his voice, even if he just said, ‘Oh, I don't like that’, and she would immediately be filtering for that. ‘What have I doing wrong’? because of that fear response that was already programmed into her.
He talks about taking these memories. It could be a minor trauma, but it ends up being a big thing that you frame yourself for and limit your beliefs. And I think, like, when you're a child, you don't have that understanding of, mum might have been just a bit stressed and told you ‘you're just a naughty little girl', And then you've just taken that away, and I'm a bad person. Forever and a day, now it's in my life. It can be that simple. And yet it was just mum having a bad day and was a bit stressed and yelled at you, which really shouldn't have had that impact. And as an adult, you wouldn't have taken that. But as a child, you've not been able to filter that.
So what he does, and also with big trauma, he's worked with lots of vets and people that have been blown up and bombs and lost legs and horrible things. He says, you have this memory that is in High Definition movie. And it's trauma, right? And it’s so real and vivid in your memory banks. And anything can trigger it. So it might be a song or smell, a person, an event, and it will just, you're immediately back there in that trauma, and you're reliving it. That creates an emotional response in the body. And what he does through his program is similar to what the hypnosis, I imagine, is take that high definition movie and turn it into a black-and-white picture that's still in your brain, but no longer causes a physiological response because we get stuck in this loop. We're looping around those thoughts and that experience and experiencing it in real-time because your brain doesn't differentiate if this was 20 years ago or it's now. If you think back to a horrible event in your life, that was really traumatic feeling for you, you will have all of those physiological responses in real-time right now because the brain doesn't know. You're actually bringing it out into your body.
And this is where the whole thing about psycho-neuro-immunology comes into it. Where everything that's going on in our brain is fixed and is stuck in our biology and expresses through our biology. And you've obviously been deeper into this world than I have of late. I'm really just scratching the surface. But how do you think that affects us from a health perspective?
Kim: If you think we are made up of 50 trillion cells, and every one of those cells is communicating and it's got a whole incredible unconscious way of sustaining life. And when we think about it consciously, I mean, you're not thinking about your left finger now growing right now, although you might be now because I brought attention to it. But unconsciously so much is happening because of the programming, because of the ability of the body to do what it does and create what we call homeostasis.
So if you have a traumatic experience, and you get triggered by that, let's say, well, I've got a girlfriend who was in—sadly, her story's amazing, I'll get you to get her on your podcast. But basically, she lost her fiance to suicide. She was so traumatized, but within a year, she just couldn't get over it so she decided, on his one year anniversary, she'd go to Bali to take her life.
She had two girl friends who knew that she wasn't right so they went with her. That night, they went out to the Sari Club, and we all may be aware of the Bali bombings that went off. Now, one minute Karen's thinking of going to Bali to take her life. The next minute she is pushed through a burning wall and running for her life. So her physiology—and by the way, she lost her two friends out of that experience so now she feels responsible for three people stiff.
So you can imagine for her what that meant, and her story is phenomenal as she goes into a world of six years of depression. Now what brings her out of it is obviously a lot of self-work. But her dad talking about, his nickname for her as Buffy. And he says to her, he had her on his knee, she's a woman in her late 30s at this point, and he has her sitting on her knee and says ‘Buffy, we've all got to—some time, the caterpillar has got to go through a transformational process to come out the other side and become the butterfly’. And, for some reason, maybe he’s been saying it for those six years, but for some reason, on that day, she heard it. And she has gone on this exploratory path of what is it that has us physiologically turned into this thing called depression. And these are her words, not mine. She believes depression is a choice. So she says you go to sleep every night, you fall asleep, you might be depressed as you fall asleep but as you go to sleep into the unconscious part of sleep, you are no longer depressed. But the minute, not the minute, the moment you wake up, you're not depressed, until the memory kicks in, of who you are, your story in your life, and now all of a sudden, you're living depression.
I'm not undermining depression for anyone listening. And I'm certainly not an expert in that field. But I found it interesting that she feels depression is a choice. So when you think about that, your biology, and what's happening at a physiological level like you say, at a cell level, if you are believing—and by the way, the reason why I said that is if a balloon popped, or champagne cork went off, the explosion of that triggered her exactly into that time and place. So it takes time, effort and energy and real work on self to overcome these traumas.
Now we're not born with a rulebook or a guide book. And our parents aren’t born with a book on how to help us psychologically. We're all traversing this pathway with the best that we possibly can. And so I share that in the hope and realisation that for many of us, suicide is not the answer. And I say that with a disclaimer, that it's really important that in these times of worry and fear and stress and overwhelm, that you seek help if you're feeling like your world is closing in. You're not your own coach. You're not your own best coach. Your partner's not necessarily the best coach or mentor for you through these times. Neither are your parents. So sometimes we need professional help.
And what I love about these days is, if you're seeing a psychologist, in my mom's day, you're seen as a little bit weak. Whereas today, I think you're seen as profoundly intelligent, emotionally intelligent to get that support. So whether it's hypnosis, aroma-therapy, psychology, NLP, getting a coach, getting a mentor, it doesn't matter what it is. And there's a lot of free help out there. If you search it in podcasts like this, that really dive into one realm if you go down the science link, but my real passion sits in the heart space. And if you love who you are, then I believe you have awareness when you're not in love with yourself. And if you take care of yourself, then we know that that helps you one step, one moment, one breath at a time. You're better off, doing something nice for yourself making a green smoothie than you are drinking a bottle of wine. I'm not saying that a bottle of wine with a girl friend and pouring your heart out and having a good cry isn't healthy. But it’s not your crutch. Anything can become a crutch too.
Lisa: It’s not to become your crutch, right? Anything can become an addiction.
Kim: An addiction is not a great place to be either. So we know that if you can find a way one step, one breath at a time. Whether it's free, or if you have the money to invest. And let's face it, most people's biggest excuses for why they don't work on themselves is time and money. And I'm here to tell you that I think it's absolute bullshit, that it's not time and money. It's about whether or not you make yourself a priority because we all know if you, let me say this to your listeners. If someone that you loved was hanging off a cliff, and that means that in order to save them you had to have a weekly message until the end of this year. To save them you would find the time and the money to do it. Now that might seem a bit extreme. But I promise you when you are faced like you have been with your mum and your dad, everything goes aside until you put that at the forefront. So it's about prioritization and the moment you–.
Lisa: And I’m not even feeling guilty for it.
Kim: Except when we look at guilt, sometimes that, even that emotion of guilt is an interesting one. So we feel guilt because we're doing something for ourselves, which is taking away from something else perhaps. And even that's interesting.
So when I look at the emotion of guilt, it's because we're doing something maybe selfishly. Well, what if we could reframe that into investing in ourselves. As a mum, putting a child into daycare, or having a babysitter every now and again so that you can go out or going for a weekly massage? If we look at that as guilt, if you really look at this—this is something interesting and I just want you to think about this. That lot of guilt is it that we're using that as a frame to hide the fact that some days being a mother is fricking hard work. And some days, we actually may hate it. And some days, maybe we are so exhausted, so mentally, physically, emotionally exhausted that we hate it so much. That we then feel bad because we've yelled, we've screamed, we've not been the best version of ourselves. And then we put it into mother guilt. We frame it in that where some days, we just fricking—we don't like it.
I think if we could own those emotions more and own the fact that it doesn't feel great some days, own up but with power, not victim mentality, then I think we would actually be more honest. And we would actually say, that's when I always say, have a bestie that you can call who's not going to go into the gossip-victim mentality, but the ‘I'm hearing you girlfriend’. And then at the end of that, you say, ‘What do you want to do about it? And what's your purpose for this belief, or this feeling right now? And what can you learn from it’? To have a girlfriend or a mate or partner or a friend who says ‘What can we learn from this’? is one of the best friends you could have in your corner. That is psychotherapy and psychology at its best.
What can you learn from this? And sometimes it's very hard to look at the lessons when you're in the throes of it and when emotions are high, intelligence is very low. So that might not be the question that we ask when someone's highly volatile and emotional. But to be a good listener, to hear someone pour their heart out. Often as we talk it to someone that's listening, truly listening without trying to fix us. When you're listening, we often talk through the process out loud, because I believe all humans have all traits and all humans have all resources within them to help heal themselves. But sometimes we just need to hear it. And I don't know about you, Lisa, but sometimes as I'm talking through my problem, I realize how stupid it is, or how benign it sounds. Or how relatively benign it is compared to what someone else is going through. So to have a good listening friend, or to be that listening friend, is sometimes one of the best fast track pathways into self-care which motorizes you right into the heart of self-love.
Here's my third thing. I'm gonna put a caveat on that. That takes discipline. Without discipline, you can care for yourself and go on to the airy fairy land of woe and spirituality, and, oh, my gosh, this is all teaching me lots without responsibility, then that is not serving you. The discipline of waking up every day and physically doing something with that beautiful vehicle of yours with 50 trillion cells. Whether it's five minutes of tricep dips and push-ups just in your bedroom before you get dressed. Whether it's going for a 30-minute walk. Whether it's push and pushing yourself. We know the physiology of pushing the body actually puts you out of your comfort zone, which changes your cell structure. And when you change that, you get more clarity. And when you have more clarity, you make better decisions.
As you get to know yourself more and understand the triggers in your life, your responses, the victim mentality, you start to realize that you don't stop having problems, you just have bigger problems, Lisa. So you might be having a problem that's, ‘I'm not sure whether I should run in the Gold Coast hinterland this weekend because I've got the weekend off’ or whether your problem is trying to emotionally deal with the fact that your father never told you he loved you. Well, they're both problems. But I can tell you which problem I'd rather be traversing and working out. Because I've worked out the fact that maybe, and this isn't me personally, but my dad didn't tell me he loved me or maybe I experienced a very significant abuse. Or maybe I had a traumatic experience that now I'm working on to understand what it means to me.
I think you'd agree with me. Every person you've had on your podcast or every person you've ever met, the ones we admire and love the most are the ones that have actually gone to hell and back. But they've found a way out. It's the comeback story. Google and The Hero’s Journey by Joseph Campbell. It's a six minute video to watch. We all go through The Hero's Journey where we want adventure, we want to go out on a limb, we want to do things. But then we find dragons and people putting us down or pulling us out. And then we traverse through that hardship, and we come out battered and beaten and torn and spat out.
But as we come through that we realize the adventure becomes amazing treasure. And through the treasures we find, we expand and evolve. And as we expand and evolve, we become a better human. And we then go on a new adventure. There’s more dragons. There's more people spitting on us and things. But that is the circle of life, right. If we could just understand that it's at our darkest times, we actually are revealed. Your strength comes through, your courage, your determination, your tenacity, your resilience is what shows up. Or you have the potential to discover when we go through it. Because when life's great, it's great. We don't tend to push ourselves so much when it's great. And that's the cool thing, we get to have a rest when life's great.
Lisa: I always say this to people when I'm speaking.
Kim: I say this with hand on heart, to those of you going through a tough time I have something for you—this too shall pass.
Lisa: One of my favourite sayings of the world.
Kim: Absolutely. And then I also say to those of you in a really good place in your life, I've got some advice for you—this too shall pass. So we know that life is ebb and flow, high and low, in and out, dark and light. If we could come to accept that, then that is self-love. That is realising that actually when life's good, I'm going to learn more. I'm going to listen to different podcasts. I'm going to maybe study something. I'm going to read something. And I say read, not on a technology thing, I mean read a book. I’m going to immerse myself. I'm going to go to a retreat or a breakthrough. I'm going to take on coaching and mentoring. Because we don't want to just be great versions of ourselves, we want to be exceptional versions of ourselves.
And to do that, it's great to work on ourselves when life's great. Because then when the life hits us or the storm, or I'll say you either get a tap, a whack or a Mack. You'll get a tap when someone taps you or something upsets you. You'll get a whack when maybe you're thrown off guard or you've lost your job or your relationships over. We get a Mack Truck, major illness, losing someone, and it sideswipes you to the point where you're on your knees and you can't breathe. But if you've got those tools of resilience inside of you, or you know where to go as you breathe through each moment.
And let's face it, in order to heal it, you truly have to feel it. So that means we can't hide the emotions from any of these. Or that we say ‘Oh, everything's great’ when it's fricking not. Owning it with power and not telling your story as a victim is painful. But owning it and then saying but you know what I'm seeing someone or I'm doing this or I'm using my oils or listening to this podcast with Lisa Tamati. And I've literally met this amazing supplement that I think is actually going to work for me right now. Whatever you hear, don't take it for granted. And always trust that what you're hearing in the moment is a beautiful sign. There's always signs and opportunity of growth, passion, love and development. It just means that what your reticular activation system is filtering for. And whether you're looking for the good or more of the shit that you've just been through.
Lisa: Explain that RAS, Kim. What is it?
Kim: Well, we know there's a part of the brain that has memories. It has filters. It has this whole belief system. But let's look at it this way. What's your favourite car? Or what's a car you dream to own if you don't have it right now?
Lisa: Probably…
Kim: You’re not really probably not that materialistic.
Lisa: I drive around in a 20-year-old car. Let's just say a Ferrari just for the sake of… A red Ferrari.
Kim: A red Ferrari. Sometimes we could call that a penis extinction or a mid-life crisis awakening. But anyway, what's a nice car you like?
Lisa: Oh, I like Jaguars.
Kim: Jaguars. Let’s go with that. And what colour?
Lisa: A wine-coloured one.
Kim: Ah, wine-coloured. So that beautiful burgundy wine-coloured Jaguar?
Lisa: Yeah, not very common, probably. So probably not a good example. But you know what I mean?
Kim: However, it's now in your mindset. It's now in your memory. It's now in your reticular activation system. It's now a part—it’s become out of the 2 million bits of information we receive each day, we actually only have access to 136 bits. So I want you to think about that 2 million bits of information that is coming at you. But we are actually only able to process 136 in our consciousness. Because if you think about it, to access and process 2 million bits we'd be in constant burnout and overwhelm. So those 136 bits now we've just been spoken about a burgundy coloured Jaguar. That's come really close into the forefront of your reticular activation system. So you may find over the next 24 - 48 hours, you might just happen to see one. That's because you're now filtering for it.
You've got 136 bits of that seed. And particularly if we put it to the front of our values, and it became a value. Let's say, car’s not necessarily a high value. But being able to transport yourself or take people to and from places or you love adventure, and travelling. You have a real high value for adventure, a car is part of that. And so now, adventure is one of the highest values on your list of life values. Within that, if we dig deeper is the burgundy-coloured Jaguar. Now you're actually going to see it every time you're thinking of adventure. You might think now, actually ‘Bloody dammit, I've worked really hard, I deserve this’. And now all of a sudden, you start seeing ads for Jaguars or you start thinking. That's what we mean about pulling in the 136 bits of information into the reticular activation system. And now you're seeing it, now you're proving it.
Lisa: And this is why goal setting works, isn't it. Because you've set a goal. You've made that as a priority. So it's a scary one. And then everything that will help you get towards your goal, your subconscious is picking up those things and then saying, ‘hey, be aware of this’. So if you decide you want to run a marathon, it's probably a good example with us two crazy runners. Or ex-crazy runners. You start seeing articles about running and videos on running. You'll be aware of runners running around your neighbourhood that you might have ignored before because suddenly this has become a goal.
So your brain is going, ‘Oh, you wanted this? Well, I'm just making you aware. Here's some tools to get there’. So that's a really good example of the RAS selection really.
Kim: You got to remember too, and I want to make this really clear, it's something that I've learned just lately. If you have a goal to run a marathon, and it's really high in your priorities. You start off in the first week, and you're doing the pro there's maybe a 12-week program. Maybe they're doing one of your the Neal's program. Maybe they've got one of these things. And they’re in week one. They're highly enthusiastic and excited. Week two, they’re a bit sore. It’s hurting a bit, and they have DOMS setting in and now it's like it's not getting easier. In fact, the more you train, the more you realize that even though you don't realize you're getting better and stronger, you're pushing yourself more. And, so you're feeling worse. So by week three, usually within those 21 days, we're starting to go maybe a marathon isn't the goal at all. Or you still keep saying it's a marathon but now you're not going out for the longer run. Now what's happened is your goal is not matching your value.
Now, this is the real essence of the work. How do we make running a marathon one of your highest values? If I listed all your values, you may find health or adventure or pushing the limits or expanding yourself is number 10 on the list.
Lisa: And therefore won't get–
Kim: It's not gonna get done. Which is why so many of us, we set New Year's goals. We join a gym, we go along. And then we basically make a donation to that gym for the rest of the year. So the important thing to realize is that you have to have your goal aligned with your top three values. And if it's not aligned with any of your top three values, you're going to need some integration work to bring it up there if it's something you really want. Because otherwise, that's where the excuses come in or you get an injury. Was it an injury? Or was your subconscious mind delivering you the possibilities that you didn't have to do it? I find health and injuries and disease, and all of those things.
I think if you've read Bruce Lipton's book, The Biology of Belief, you'll know that what we believe we perceive. Where focus goes, energy flows. So if you have all of these things in your mind, if your focus is now on all sore and injury and it's too hard, I don't want to do it. Bang! You're going to find your energy goes that way. It flows that way. And hello, now you've got a reason, an excuse to physically pull out of the marathon. So you know, people would say ‘oh, no, I didn't mean to trip over the washing basket'. Well, how come for the last 365 days, the washing basket could have been there but you never–
The unconscious mind is one of the most powerful places to work, which is why I love hypnosis. Which is why I love timeline therapy. Which is why I love getting into. If you look at a mountain, the snow part on the top is your conscious mind. But in fact, everything underneath which is driving your behaviour, is driving your feelings, your beliefs and your values is actually the tip of the iceberg. That's right 95% of it is definitely coming from the unconscious mind.
Lisa: Yeah, and this is why we need to do the deep work. You just reminded me of a couple of things. Everytime that I do a big mess of a race in the past, I would get sick, or I'd have an injury or something would happen. And usually in the week or two weeks before the actual event. It was like my body's going, ‘I'm gonna stop you because I want you’... A part of me doesn't want to do it’. So you’re going to chuck a few obstacles.
You have to understand that when you override that, and you keep going, often that injure or that niggle, whatever that was, disappears. I saw that, firsthand, time and time again. And even when I was running through New Zealand, and I was doing 70Ks a day, and I was getting weaker and sicker and really, just absolutely blown apart after two weeks. And I didn't stop though, because I had an amazing team and I had a big why. Why I was doing this: charities and big responsibilities, so I keep going despite horrific pain and all the rest of it. Then my body went, ‘Oh, it's just not stopping, we better get on board with this’. And it got stronger and stronger. From the two-week point up until the six-week point, I actually got stronger and stronger. And I thought that it's all over. I could have a walking stick. I was walking, I wasn't running. I was having to go down sideways downhills, because my shins were so bad. And when I still kept going, then the brain went, ‘Well, we better get on with it because she's not going to stop, obviously’. And that's a really good example.
One of the other things I wanted to bring up because motivation follows action, not the other way around. So like when you don't feel like going training today, which is pretty much me every day. I don't feel like it, but I take action, I do something I might be just putting on my gym gear. And I've said this before, put on your gear, walk out the door, go to the letterbox and then see. Often, when you've just taken that couple of steps of action, then you're in the movement and you're like, ‘Oh, well, I'm out here, now muscle go’. Then it gets easier and easier and then you're in the flow of it.
It's the anticipation, sometimes, that stops you. And when you just get up, doing the press-ups in the morning, before I do anything else. I go and have a cold shower or do my heart rate monitoring my HRV. All the breath-hold techniques, and then I come out of the shower. Then I often do like my press-ups and stuff before I sit down at the computer. Because I've done it and if you have little tiny habits that you build in. It might be just teeny press-ups or teeny sit-ups. Every time you go to the loo. Whatever the case maybe you set these little wee micro-goals that you can't fail it. And that action creates motivation. Because you've actually done a little bit and you're pleased with yourself and that creates its own reward loop type of thing.
A lot of what you were saying was just lots. That's exactly what Paul Taylor, I've just had on my show. I'm gonna do Dr Don, would you know. All of this is very, very similar.
So, Kim, I want to go now into hypnosis because this is something that fascinates me. I haven't studied it. I want to, it's on my to-do list at some point in time. Tell me how the heck does that work and what's involved with the hypnosis process?
Kim: It's pretty cool. It's tapping directly into the unconscious mind. And I could use language with us right here and now where I could get us all into a very relaxed state. And every breath that you're taking, we're getting more and more relaxed. And as we relax more, we learn more. And the more we learn, the more we hear. And as we’re hearing new thoughts and opportunities, the more we realize we're capable of everything and anything. That's because we're extraordinary. So as I talk like that, and as I speak to you like that, it's almost putting you into a subconscious trance, which is kind of has your mind scrambling and not having to consciously think.
Your mind kind of goes on this beautiful journey. It's in that space, where you, I believe, we tap into the heart space. And when we tap into the heart or the unconscious space, we can put new meanings past the critical factor, past that critical person who knocks you or puts you down all the time. Here’s another question. If you hear yourself knocking yourself, who's talking? If you're listening, who's talking? And if it's you're saying it, who's listening? So I love the rabbit hole of the unconscious mind because it gets you realizing that everything is about programming. Everything is programmed. And so we want to program excellent computers.
Which is why when we watch people who do amazing things, we want to model ourselves off them or we want to learn how they did it. Which is why I love NLP and hypnosis together. But hypnosis really is the ability to tap into the unconscious mind, bypassing the critical factor so that we can get to the heart, the juice, the unconscious mind to create change. So that when you come out the other side, you see possibility and opportunity. Not all the negative shite that you were saying before, we may have had the session.
And I think it's just accessing it. We spend most of our time consciously thinking. Yet as I said at the beginning when was the last time you gave thanks to your fingernail for growing or your digestive juices for doing what they're doing or your hair growing or those bald maybe not growing, but it's a really beautiful thing. And I think things like flotation tank massage. Times when you get to deeply truly relax, when we let go of the physiology of tension around us actually allows the cells to almost breathe. If we breathe, if you followed Wim Hof or any of the amazing work with breath or James Nestor whose book I just—I love James Nestor’s book.
Lisa: I’ll introduce you.
Kim: Who, James or Wim?
Lisa: James. And Patrick McKeown as well.
Kim: I love that book Breathe, changed the way I looked at my breathing. I’ve been taping my mouth at night because we can go without food for a month. I've heard of people go a year without food. We can go weeks without water. But we can't go many seconds or many minutes without breath.
Breath is the essence of life. And when we go into a state of hypnosis, we are really letting go of the breath. And as we let go of the breath, we actually are able to access the intelligence of the cells. Intelligence of the higher vibration. Without going too wacky, I guess the other way to look at it is that we operate, we're aware that we can measure the speed of light. And I can't remember the exact measurement of it right now but it's bloody fast. But everything below that is all measurable. And from a conscious level, we understand it, you know, we've got vibrational frequency of plants, of oils, of food. We understand that there's a vibrational frequency to all things. But above the speed of light, where we go into the zero point field of quantum physics and true possibility and infinity. That's where the mind just– . It's so big and so bizarre, that you actually can't do anything but surrender to it and feel all possibility.
I guess the way to look at that, to try and bring it into some realm, is if we put one of our blood cells, if we put blood under a microscope, we would go down, and we'd see there's a whole lot of cells. Then we'd go further into the cell and then we'd see a whole cell and within the cell is a whole lot of stuff and life. Proteins and cytoplasm, DNA and RNA. But then if we go right into the DNA and RNA, we go further into that you'll see there's even more microcosms of cells and systems and structure. And if you keep going, the more you go, the more you see. There is nothing but space.
Lisa: There is only vibration.
Kim: And space. And then there's just the vibration.
Lisa: And this is science. There is nothing there. They’re just energy.
Kim: And we could do it to the chair you're sitting on. We could slice through a piece of that. And when the more we go into each of the wooden chairs, or this chair that you're sitting on structure, you'll see that that becomes nothing. And we can go the other way where we go up into us, here right now. From our cells into our blood systems, to our body, to our human system, to our environment, to our community, the place we live, into the planet, then we go beyond the planet into the galaxy, and then we realize the galaxies beyond the galaxies, all of a sudden, we're back to nothing. So we can go macro or micro. but the joy of this ride into quantum physics is that it means that everything means nothing, and nothing is no thing and no thing is everything and everything is something.
When I start doing that with my mind, it makes you realize that actually, if I bring it right back into that significant emotional event that occurred when I was a five-year-old girl. I just, through my own filter systems, through my own values, beliefs and upbringing, my personality, all of those meta-programs going on, I made it mean something. And I love this idea. What if life had no meaning? And it had no meaning that it had no meaning. What if we could actually realize that everything we think is true is actually just a limiting belief of perception of our idea of reality. That in fact, the only reality, the only truth I could actually give you right here right now, is that you and I both know, there's two truths, probably. One truth is that the sun will come up tomorrow. Whether we see it or not is another thing but we do know it’s the truth, the sun will come up tomorrow. And the other truth is we will all die at some point. But even that's up for debate because do we die? Or do we go to another realm in which we didn’t have past and future lives and soul journey? So I don't know.
Lisa: We could go like a huge, and I’ll be– no, I'm fascinated by quantum physics. And most of it, to be honest, is beyond my grasp, it’s a little brainy. But I know that there’s these bigger things out there and I'd love to riff with you for a couple hours on this subject. But we'd probably, people will be getting ‘what the hell are they talking about’?
Kim: What I'd love to say though, is just to finish off there, is just to realize that everything you've ever experienced is just a belief. It's not truth, it's just your perception. So it's never the truth. It's always up for bid, based on how you believe and see and perceive the world. Which is why there's conflict, which is why we have arguments.
But wouldn't it be beautiful, if I could just for a minute, put my shoe, try because I never could. But if I put my shoes and feet into your shoes just for a moment, and imagine it from your perception, your beliefs and your reality, I actually have more understanding.
Lisa: And more empathy.
Kim: I may not agree with it, I may not like it. But, my gosh, it's interesting that it's from your perspective. So every time we feel ourselves triggered, or every time we feel ourselves going into a place of anger or frustration or guilt or sadness or whatever that driving emotion is. Rather than sitting in the whirlpool of mud pit of it, ask yourself this question: For what purpose am I feeling this? Why? Or even just the question why? Why am I sad? Well, I'm sad, because he said that. Why does what he says make you sad? Well, because it's not fear? Why is not fear, not fear? Well, because I don't feel like I'm listened to. Why is it important that you're listened to? Because I feel so alone. Why are you feeling alone? Because I don't love myself.
If you really go to the core of all of it, I promise you, it almost gets back to the fear of not being loved or the fear of not being accepted. That's what everything that drives these emotions in our behaviours comes from.
Lisa: Wow, that is just absolutely amazing. And it's all automatic. Like we had these, Dr Daniel Amen talks about these automatic negative thoughts that just pop up all the time. And if we can separate ourselves out from our own brain, our own subconscious, our own programming, and just observe how these automatic thoughts just keep coming at you all the time. And then if you let them go, they'll go again.
Kim: Or know that those negative thoughts are part of the human experience. They are actually from an evolutionary, anthropological development point of view. We had to be on alert for the sabre-toothed tiger, we had to be watching our tribe or our kids, we had to be there. But we actually spiked ourselves into sympathetic dominants very quickly with that. Years gone by we also pushed ourselves very quickly back down into parasympathetic place. We had peace just to digest. Years today, we're living in the sympathetic dominant’s world.
So I just say with you, as the negative thought comes in, even ask that question, why am I thinking that and keep doing that? I always say our seven why's, and be really honest with yourself. Ask seven why's: Why didI feel that? Why am I thinking that?
I remember my grandmother. Here's another nice way of saying it. I was driving down the freeway once. This is years ago when she was still alive. She emigrated from New Zealand to Australia at 90 years of age. So I always say to people, if you think you’re too old for anything. I always say no. That's a limiting belief, right? So anyway, we're driving down the freeway, I was driving back to King’s Row which she was living over here. And she always used to put her hand on my knee and she'd say, penny for your thoughts. And this particular doubt, obviously had my jaw was clenched. I tell Grandma, ‘I can't talk about this one'. And she said, ‘Oh, Sweetheart, come on. A problem shared is a problem half solved’. So I turned the music up. So the children couldn't hear behind me. They were in their car seats. And I leaned over and said, ‘Grandma, I had this terrible thought, I'm going to have a car accident. A hit on car accident’. And the awful thing about that is that I've just read a book called The Secret which is all about the law of attraction. The more you think it, the more you might attract it. ‘Darling, that must be awful. Terrible’, she goes. ‘Oh, darling, you know, sometimes when we have a thought like that, did you ever stop to think that maybe it's your angels just asking you to drive more carefully’.
So ever since she said that whenever I've had a negative thought come in, like ‘Oh, I don't feel like going for a run God, you're useless. Might you go for a run’? I then go ‘Maybe my angels are asking me to go for a walk today instead'. Or maybe it's just important that I go outside on earth on sand or the grass and just take three deep breaths. Maybe the angels are just saying to me, ‘Your body just don't feel like a good run today, but do something more gentle, be more gentle’. And I think having that reframe ability is one of the most powerful things we can do as humans on the planet.
Lisa: Wow, what a wise Nana you had. Especially since you have a history, you've got a world record as being the youngest to do 24-hour racing.
Kim: Well, it's nothing to these days now. I ran 100 miles in less than 24 hours and I was the youngest woman.
Lisa: It’s not nothing and it’s crazy. I know what they take...
Kim: On a 400-meter track.
Lisa: Yes, I know exactly what it takes. You're not coming from a place of laziness, You’re coming from this place of being sensible and listening to your body and tuning into that. And I love what your Nana said, your grandma said, ‘What an amazing lady’.
There's another thing I just said, we'll wrap it up in a second because I have to go and pick up my mummy. But Paul Taylor talked, who I'm gonna introduce you to, who's doing all this crazy stuff. And he's been on the podcast. He talks about these two characters that you have in your head and he gets you to draw them. Your epic, uber you and your not so great, you. The one that's negative, or the one that's always pulling it down. And they actually put them into figures that you actually draw little cartoon bubbles, and what they are saying to you? And by doing this you're creating the distance to make it real. It puts it into a cartoon perspective of what's actually going on in your brain and this fight because otherwise, it's very ethereal. You know that you are, part of you wants to be this amazing, good person doing these amazing, incredible things and pushing outside your boundaries and being brave. And the other part of you just wants to crawl up and be negative and horrible.
Kim: And the beautiful thing of that, just on that note, is we could call that shadow or golden shadow. And if you ask the seven why's to each of those characters, you will be amazed. And this is why I love the work that I do, is that they both actually have the same purpose.
Lisa: Wow, to protect you.
Kim: They’re both to protect you, to guide you, to love you.
Lisa: They just don’t know the best way.
Kim: Exactly. And sometimes, it’s beautiful to actually integrate the two together as well. I just wanted to add that.
Lisa: I think that’s great. Because there’s what’s that negative one. If you think about it, why is it telling you something negative? Because it's scared?.‘You can't run a marathon? Who do you think you are? You're not good enough to do that’. That's the negative voice speaking. It's a negative little Lisa that didn't go. And then the other ones. ‘Yes, you can. I know you can make it. Come on, keep going’. And then when you put that into the perspective of why is that negative voice saying that? Because it doesn't want you to fail, it doesn't want you to get hurt. It's like your overprotective mother, who's actually holding you back from what you can achieve. And then you've got the other one on the other side, the mum that's going ‘Come on, you can do that. I'm cheering for you!’ And just understanding that this process is going on in our heads.
As runners we know that voice very, very well. Because when you’ve been 100 miles out there, it's screaming. That negative voice is screaming that you just stop.
Kim: You know what’s so funny with it. I just finished with this one. I remember running this world record race and I remember this voice inside of my head for the first probably, I'll be honest, 14 hours of the race. It was saying ‘You’re a dork. What a stupid thing to do. Who does this? You're never gonna do this. What? You're a dork’. All of these things. And then I go ‘Oh shut up’, and I carry on.
Anyway, finally at about we call the graveyard shift, between 12 and 6 am. And the doctor comes out puts me on the scales and I was looking terrible. I'm dragging my sorry back around the track. He puts me on the scales and he goes, ‘I'm sorry, Kim, you've lost seven kilos, nearly seven kilos. We're going to take you out of the race. It would be wrong with me to let you race’. And in that moment this voice went, ‘You can't tell me I can’t run. You can't tell me’. I begged him to let me stay in the race. So for 14 hours, I've been fighting it then someone tells me I can't do it. This voice turns around and goes you can't tell me what to do. And then he said to me, ‘Listen to your team. You're gonna eat all this stuff. You're gonna have to take these supplements’. Then I ended up rising above it and then setting a world record and then when they said tom me I set a world record, I turned around and I was receiving the trophy I sat there and I thought, ‘Imagine what I could have done if I hadn’t spent fourteen hours on the track whinging’.
Lisa: All that energy being sucked into that negativity and I still haven't worked out how to shut it up completely. But it's a rebellious nature that comes out when anybody tells me I can't do something. It's like a red rag to a bull.
Kim: I think that's why I love so much with my–. I have a mentorship program where I have women every week coming into this. Every Tuesday night they show up with me and I pull their minds apart and I give them and I dance with it because now I have such a love. Whoo. We do that.
And then I'm super pumped that we now have live events happening, which are the essential self, key weekend, which then are the immersion events. Because for many of us to learn this, it really takes a process. But imagine immersing yourself into it for a whole weekend. And sometimes I think we make greater shifts in it by immersion rather than week by week or month by month.
And I'm only sharing this because I know that a lot of your listeners around the world, the ones on the Sunshine Coast, and ones going to be down in Victoria and Melbourne. But I just want people to know that it doesn't have to be my event. But look at something around you. What's going on? Even if it's someone doing a library talk, someone's offering something at the local—YouTube. Just keep your mind stimulated with possibility because it's through the possibility we have grown. It’s through the growth we become way more powerful individuals. And with that, we start to then look at our higher purpose, and what legacy are we going to leave in this life.
Lisa: Keep being curious. And I really encourage anyone who wants to reach out, to come on, maybe join her mentorship program where you’re doing that every week, and that's ridiculously good price like, it's super good value. So if you want to reach out to Kim and join her mentorship program there or join her in one of your retreats, we will give all the details in the show notes. But just briefly, Kim, where can people find out about you, contact you, ask you about all your own work that you do, your books and so on.
Kim: So two places. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you asking because I just really want this to work out. I really want people to know, the more love they have for themselves, the more they have to offer. But really to look it up kimmorisontraining.com is where you'll find the mentorship stuff. But also my beautiful products and oils, which I use throughout the whole time is twenty8.com. You can find me on Instagram, Kim Morrison and the number 28.
I love Instagram, I love being there. But I really, even if you just wanted to have a chat or to see the work that I do. Even the one-on-one mentoring that I offer. There's some breakthrough sessions that I now do that is a real 8-hour deep. You book me for eight hours straight, or we break it up into two-four hours, but do we have breakthroughs. But there's a whole lot of stuff. Plus I do international retreats and I'm launching later this year my spa, immersion and integration which is success, purpose, alignment, immersion. So that will be later this year, which I'm super pumped and excited for. It’s the goals I really live. I just, I'm so pumped.
Lisa: When do you ever have a rest?
Kim: You speak for yourself! Oh my god. Talk about you see what you see in another isn't totally present in yourself. So I see you and I go, well. And I see and realize and appreciate and respect. It's because we have this beautiful duality of love for one another.
Lisa: We do, we definitely do. You're a very special person. And I've got that little negative voice in my head gang. ‘You're not as good as Kim because she's doing all of that'. And the other one’s going ‘Yeah exactly’. And the other side's going ‘You should figure it out. You're also, you're doing amazing stuff too'. This is a classic example. I had to give that example because it's quite funny. And when you when you're self-aware enough to care crap, you're stupid busy.
But I really encourage people, kimmorrisontraining.com and 20, the word twenty8.com. Word twenty and the number 8 dot com. Check out what Kim does.
Thank you so much, my dear friend.
Kim: I love you and thank you for all the work you do. And I'm going to talk to that beautiful little inner critic right now. And she's just protecting you because she knows how much work it takes to do all of this work. She's just saying to you maybe not right now. Launching all those other ideas you've got in your head because I know we talked about our fear. Stop.
Lisa: Yeah, stop over. Thank you so much for your time today. You've been absolutely epic.
Kim: I love you lots.
That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.
The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.
From our physical appearance to our body's mechanical functions, our whole being is encoded into our genes and kept in each cell that makes us. These basic biological units have their system to keep everything functioning and our body alive and moving. They have housekeeping functions: cells perform autophagy to get rid of accumulated waste materials. Maximising the effects of these processes can help in increasing your longevity.
When the autophagic processes fail, it can damage important parts of the cell such as the DNA and accelerate ageing. In this episode, Dr Elena Seranova explains the science behind autophagy and how it connects to NAD and sirtuin genes. She also shares her own experience and research on using this knowledge to live a longer, fuller life.
Join us in this episode to learn more about autophagy and how this process is useful in increasing your longevity and giving you a boost in life.
For our epigenetics health program that is all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.
You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.
Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.
If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.
My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research, and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/
For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.
‘Lysosome is another acidic organelle that contains acid hydrolases that are able to digest this cargo...and if it doesn't work, well, the cell is basically in trouble because you have all this garbage floating around, and there is nothing to remove them. So this is why autophagy is important.
‘When things are preserved across species, then that gives a scientist an indication that this is probably a very important biological function’.
‘I think that in order for your body to function properly, you really need to have a kind of a healthy routine in general’.
‘So I think that when it comes to being healthy, and activating your autophagy levels, and having a healthy lifestyle in general, you need to start with the basics first.’
‘Another small tip that I can give is to actually avoid sunlight, which is something that people don't really consider. What happens when we're exposed to sunlight, when our skin is exposed to sunlight for prolonged periods of time, we start getting the DNA damage’.
“The important part is not to just increase your age, it’s to increase your healthspan.”
‘And if you have if your mitochondria are not healthy, and they're dying, and you're not having enough mitochondria in your cells, then you are going to be sick.’
Dr Elena Seranova is a scientist, serial entrepreneur and business mentor who has founded multiple innovative biotechnological businesses.
She first studied at the University of Ioannina with a major in Psychology. She started a private practice before developing an interest in neuroscience. She continued her studies and earned her Master’s Degree in Translational Neuroscience at the University of Sheffield. She now also holds a Doctorate Degree in Stem Cell Biology and Autophagy from the University of Birmingham.
Her expertise in these fields has led her to become the co-founder of a biotech start-up, SkyLab Bio. She has written a number of peer-reviewed articles and multiple research articles on autophagy throughout her career.
Aside from these accomplishments, she started her own business, NMN Bio. Her own experiences with the use of supplements have inspired her to expand the market to supply the public with cutting-edge anti-ageing supplements. NMN Bio reaches New Zealand, UK, and Europe.
Dr Elena found her passion for drug discovery and autophagy. She has endeavoured to share this with the public through her research and work as an entrepreneur.
To learn more about Dr Elena and her work, visit her website.
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Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, especially those interested in increasing their longevity, so that they can practice the activation of autophagy in their lifestyle.
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To pushing the limits,
Lisa
Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential, with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.
Lisa Tamati: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week I have Dr. Elena Seranova, who has already been a guest on the show. And today, we're talking about autophagy and NAD, and the interplay between these two. Now that might sound extremely boring, but it isn't. It's all about longevity and anti-aging. So, we're going to be talking about the science between about NAD precursors and the sirtuin genes, and how to upregulate the sirtuin genes, and all about autophagy, which is really the recycling of old and damaged parts and proteins of a cell that need to be gotten rid of. So, it's a bit like having a good garbage disposal unit happening. And there are many ways to activate autophagy, which we go into in this episode. We talk about intermittent fasting, we talk about cold and hot and hormetic stressors like exercise and yes, of course fasting. But also, mTOR independent pathways to activate autophagy, it'll all be revealed in this interview.
Now this does get a little bit technical in the first 20 minutes or so. But hang in there and listen to this a couple of times. Because if you want to slow down aging, if you want to slow down the generative decline of your body and you want to have a long and healthy lifestyle, then this stuff is really, really worth paying attention to and trying to understand.
We talk about NMN, which is nicotinamide mononucleotide, which is a supplement that is now available, is a longevity compound to upregulate the sirtuin genes. And we're really lucky to check that out. You can go and find that supplement, which has been made and produced by Dr. Elena Seranova and her company, NMN Bio. So if you head hop over to nmnbio.nz, we're now importing this into the country. So, this is one way that you can really fight aging and degenerative decline that we all fear and don't want.
And when you listen to this episode and really listen to it a couple of times, you'll understand some of the incredible anti-aging things that are coming down. This is not pseudoscience. Dr. Elena is one of the most amazing neuroscientists out there. So please listen to this episode, enjoy it, get a lot out of it and get the takeaway. So, if you don't understand some of the terminology, don't worry, keep going. And by the end, you'll start to pick up certain bits and pieces. And if you listen to it again, you'll be able to pick up a little bit more and a little bit more. And at the end of the day, it's about the takeaways, what can you do to slow aging down and all that information is in there. So, I hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Elena.
Before we go over to that we are all about health optimisation, high performance, athletic performance. So, if you need any help with any of those areas of your life, please reach out to us, Support at lisatamati.com. Go and check out our website, lisatamati.com. You'll find all our programs, our Epigenetics Programs, our online run training system that's customised and personalised totally to you, and check out what we do. We love helping you be the best version of yourself that you can be. Now over to the show with Dr. Elena Servanova.
Lisa: Well, hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here and very excited to have you hopefully join us this morning. It's 7:30am in the morning here in New Zealand. And where Dr. Elena Seranova is, it's very late at night. How are you doing, Dr. Elena?
Dr Elena Seranova: Good, good. How are you? Happy to be here again.
Lisa: Yeah, very excited for today's topic. So, we're going to be doing a discussion around autophagy and NAD boosters and sirtuin genes. So it’s going to be a really interesting discussion that is really beneficial for you if you want to know how to live longer, live healthier, and optimise your body and your mind and your potential. So, Dr. Elena, can you just tell us briefly a little bit about yourself?
Dr Elena: Sure. So, I started my journey as a psychologist. So I'm an interdisciplinary scientist. I majored in psychology at first and then I had my own private practise for five years which turned out to be a successful wellness centre. And I really got fascinated by neuroscience and the brain. And for this reason, at first I started studying the brain myself and then I found an amazing master's degree at the University of Sheffield in Translational Neuroscience, which basically combined the research and neurodegeneration with applications that could translate into therapeutics. So, this is what translational neuroscience means, is basically the combination and the outcome of the research—the hardcore biology research that can be utilised for therapeutic approaches and patients.
I really enjoyed that. So that was quite cool, being in the lab and doing molecular biology experiments and so on. So, I kind of fell in love with the lab, and I decided to do a PhD as well. I continued my studies in autophagy and stem cell biology and it was quite challenging, but at the same time, I really enjoyed it. And I can definitely say that science is a big part of my life.
Lisa: Definitely your thing. Okay, so autophagy and stem cells. So in relation to neurodegenerative diseases in that case? Okay, but what is autophagy? Because a lot of people will be listening to it and go, ‘What the heck is that big word, autophagy’? It's sort of big word in biohacking circles, but perhaps not in the general public. Can you explain what autophagy is exactly?
Dr Elena: Yes, sure. So, autophagy is a catabolic pathway that degrades dysfunctional organelles in the cell or protein pro aggregates. So, any material that is basically unwanted in the cell, autophagy can degrade. It's like the stomach of the cell.
Lisa: So, it’s like eating it? It's eating, sort of...
Dr Elena: Yeah, exactly. And what happens when autophagy is activated, we actually have the formation of the so-called phagophore, which is a membrane structure that basically engulfs different organelles and materials that need to be degraded to form the so called autophagosome, which is a round organelle that basically has this cargo that needs to be digested. That eventually fuses with lysosome.
And lysosome is another acidic organelle that contains acidic hydrolases that are able to digest this cargo. And this process is very essential for the cell, it’s very vital. It's evolutionary conserved in all species, from yeast to models. And if it doesn't work well, the cell is basically in trouble because you have all this garbage...
Lisa: Floating around.
Dr Elena: ...floating around and there is nothing to remove them. So, this is why autophagy is important. And we have different pathways that autophagy can be activated through as well. So, one of those pathways is mTOR, mechanistic target of rapamycin. And then we have other pathways that can activate this process such as AMPK, GSK3, and so on.
Lisa: So is this like, sorry to interrupt, but like because I know that people out there might be like, ‘Wow, that's a lot of big words and a lot of information’. So, is it like that the cell has to do a housecleaning, and it's got stuff inside the cell that is not working optimally, and needs to be gotten rid of, or is it the whole cell? So, it's not apoptosis. So it's not where the host is disintegrating?
Dr Elena: No. Yeah, it's actually a—it's a pre-apoptotic pathway. So, before apoptosis is activated, we have autophagy. And if autophagy fails in what it needs to do, then we have activation of some apoptotic pathways. So, it's one step before that. And if everything goes well, and autophagy is functional—and by the way, in different diseases, we might be having different autophagy impairments at different stages of autophagy. So, it's either the initial phagophore formation, for instance, that it's not working well, and it can’t engulf the cargo, or it's insulator stages of autophagy, such as the acidic hydrolysis and the lysosomes that are actually not that acidic. So their pH is not acidic enough to digest the cargo. So, we might be having different defects in the autophagy pathway in different diseases.
Lisa: That leads to apoptosis. Am I right?
Dr Elena: And yeah, if autophagy is not doing its work correctly, then eventually we will have apoptosis. And actually, this is what we're seeing in in vitro models of neurodegenerative diseases as well. So, for instance, if autophagy is not working well.
And we have, let's say, dysfunctional organelles, such as mitochondria—dysfunctional mitochondria that are not working well. Let's say they are depolarised. And there is an excess production of reactive oxygen species going on. Now, if nothing can degrade these dysfunctional mitochondria, you'll keep on having this accumulation of reactive oxygen species, which eventually will lead to DNA damage and deactivation of PARPs. And it's basically a death spiral that will keep on leading the cell towards death.
Lisa: Okay, so what is a PARP? You mentioned PARP there. And just for the listeners, too. So, apoptosis is basically cell death, programmed cell death. So, this is not—what's the other one necrotic or something?
Dr Elena: Necrosis?
Lisa: Yeah, necrosis, where the cell dies for—necrosis. But this is sort of a natural programmed cell death. But we only want that if we're actually renewing the cells and we are wanting new stuff. So, before that, the body tries to do this autophagy process, is that how it works? And then what so what is PARP? What is PARP, because that’s the word again...
Dr Elena: PARPs are a class of enzymes, and in order for them to function, they need a molecule called NAD, so nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. And they're actually competing for NAD in the cell. And whenever we have increased DNA damage, we would have the PARP activation as well. And this would lead to NAD depletion, which kind of brings me to my next point about what other enzymes consume NAD. And one of those enzymes are sirtuins, which are the so-called longevity genes that are basically responsible for multiple processes in the cell, including epigenetic regulation of gene expression.
So, they do—because sirtuins are a class of enzymes that are also dependent on NAD, and they're all the deacetylase enzymes, meaning that they remove acetyl groups from the DNA. And as a result, they control which genes will be expressed in which tissues, which is very crucial for the cellular identity and for the proper function of different cells.
So, sirtuins in a healthy cell, so sirtuin should be upregulated and they should be having this housekeeping gene—housekeeping function where they basically control what's going on with the DNA repair and also with the gene expression as well. And if we do have—when we do start having impaired autophagy, and let's say there is increased reactive oxygen species, because there are increased dysfunctional mitochondria in the cell, you will have in more activation of PARPs, and all of the NAD will start being drained from... And sirtuin will not have enough energy to function. So, those are actually quite an elegant interplay between autophagy and NAD and sirtuins.
Lisa: Okay. Okay, can I just want to like put that back to you, so that we can slow down because we are going technical quite fast. And I think a lot of people might be like, ‘What the heck are they talking about’? So, the sirtuin genes, basically longevity genes, and then one of the jobs is DNA repair. And another of the jobs is to say which genes are actually being activated right now. And these sirtuin genes are also responsible, I think, for cell replication, is that correct?
Dr Elena: The sirtuins are responsible for multiple functions, directly or indirectly. So, for instance, the sirtuin 3 gene is also responsible for mitochondrial biogenesis. And it's implicated in the amount of mitochondria that are being produced by the cell, which is related to cell replication eventually, because you do need to have enough ATP levels to replicate.
Lisa: Right. Yeah. So, this has definitely to do with ATP production as well and mitochondrial health. So, these are doing all of these jobs, the sirtuin genes, they're very, very crucial genes in our genome. And these are preserved across every species, I believe? Every species on the planet?
Dr Elena: Yeah. Also from yeast to humans, it's also—sirtuin genes are preserved very well.
Lisa: And when things are preserved across species, then that gives a scientist an indication that this is probably a very important biological function and we need to have a look at this one because it's—from what I understand.
Okay, so when you have activated PARP because you're not doing autophagy well and there's things going wrong, it's taking the NAD. So NAD is basically like a fuel source that both the sirtuin genes. And when PARP is activated, it's using to fuel its job. And so, this is competition for competing fuel sources. So, like if you imagine, you've only got one tank of fuel for your car, but you've got to go in two different directions and do two different jobs. You go, ‘How am I going to divide up my energy’? So, then it becomes important as to how much NAD we have in the body? So, what is NAD again? That says nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide? But what is that and how does it work?
Dr Elena: Yeah, it does serve as a substrate for all of these enzymes, including sirtuins and PARPS and is basically a master regulator of metabolism. So, it's a very important molecule and it serves as—without NAD, the cell is not able to function properly just because this crucial molecule is implicated in so many different reactions. So, NAD is found in all living cells and organisms. This is also evolutionary conserved across species. And it exists in two forms, NADH and NAD+, which is the reduced and the oxidised form, respectively. And both of them are important. And both of them are implicated in multiple cellular reactions.
Lisa: Is it going backwards and forwards in a cycle, NADH, NAD+, by donating electrons back and forth, sort of thing?
Dr Elena: Yeah. Through electron transport chain in the mitochondria, yeah. So, this is why it's so important. And so, what we're seeing now in the latest advancements in longevity research is that we actually can supplement with different precursors of NAD, such as nicotinamide mononucleotide, for instance, NMN. And this is the supplement that my company...
Lisa: See, you've now got that available on the market because this is such a crucial thing.
Dr Elena: Exactly. And I think that it's really interesting to also say that when it comes to the interaction between autophagy and sirtuins, there is also another regulation of autophagy there. So sirtuin 1 is actually responsible for activating some transcription factors such as TFEB and FoxO3 that have to do with initiation of the autophagy process.
So, for this reason, when we do have dropping levels of NAD, decreasing levels of NAD, and there is not enough NAD for sirtuins to do their job. And let's say again—let's talk about that previous example in neurodegeneration when you have increased reactive oxygen species, and you have increased the level of stress and oxidative stress and decreased activity of sirtuins.
And not only the situation is already bad, but because sirtuin 1 doesn't have enough energy to function and to activate the TFEB and the FoxO3 transcription factors to initiate autophagy, now you have all of this dysfunctional mitochondria floating around and autophagy starts being impaired as well because we activated enough. So, it's a negative feedback loop which actually accelerates the scenario where the cell is going towards cell death, basically.
Lisa: So that means like, if you don't have enough NAD, then your sirtuin 1 gene is not going to be able to initiate autophagy and clean up the cell and you're going to have dysfunctional mitochondria. Is that independent of the mTOR pathway? Or is that—am I getting confused?
Dr Elena: So, okay. So, good question. So, what happens is there are some molecules that activates sirtuins. So, for instance, sirtuin 1 is activated by resveratrol, and this is something that has been demonstrated many years ago. So, when you have sirtuin 1 dependent activation of autophagy, you will be having it through an mTOR independent pathway.
Lisa: So it's a fasting mimetic resveratrol.
Dr Elena: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, because we now know that the mTOR activity is not affected by intake of resveratrol. And this is quite crucial because actually, even if we want to activate autophagy, we shouldn’t do it through the mTOR pathway, this is not the preferred way, because mTOR is also responsible for growth and translation in the cell. So, this is not—it's also quite a key player in the cell. So it's a serine threonine kinase, and you actually don't want it to be activated at all times because this may lead other conditions. So, what we're focusing on at the moment is to find molecules that can activate autophagy in an mTOR independent manner.
Lisa: Okay, so. So if the mTOR—cause MTOR is usually what's for growth it’s anabolic, it's causing growth. So for example, a bodybuilder goes to the gym, they're in an anabolic state, they are in an mTOR growth state. And when you have autophagy, that's sort of the opposite. So, it's a catabolic state where it's starting to eat itself. So, it’s mTOR, most people like do fasting for that reason to activate autophagy?
Dr Elena: Yeah, this is another good point there. So, when we're fasting, and there is actually conflicting evidence out there as to when autophagy is fully activated. Usually, people say that around 24 hours, you start having the autophagy activation. There are others that swear by the ketogenic diet, and say that if you don't consume any carbs, you will get autophagy activation anyway. However, from what other researchers have found is that, if you are in a ketogenic diet, and you do consume meat, it depends on what kind of meat you consume that will either activate autophagy or not. And it all has to do with levels of different amino acids in the cell because autophagy is quite sensitive to nutrients and to nutrient starvation to be activated. If you have an abundance of amino acids, again, it will not be activated.
So, for instance, one amino acid that activates autophagy very well is leucine. And if you're eating certain meat that are rich in leucine, this is probably not good for your autophagic state. Something else to keep in mind, and I've heard, I think it was Dave Asprey saying that if you can manage to be on under 15 grams of protein per day, you will probably keep the autophagy going.
Lisa: Because a lot of people on keto think I can eat a lot of protein, which is a mistake, really. It isn't about having—that's interesting, because I had Dr. David Minkoff on my podcast, Pushing the Limits a while ago, and he has a product called PerfectAmino, which is really a 99% usable form of amino acids and combination. And I was interested, ‘Well hang on, if I'm heading there, which is going a lot of good things in the body. But is that going to inhibit my mTOR, or autophagy’? Sorry, because I've got too much leucine in there?
Dr Elena: This is a very good point for all of this process food as well. So, for instance, there are some ready meals you can get or some protein bars that claim to have all the low carb and everything. And then they slam a badge on their pack saying that it's vegan as well. But then, why is it vegan if it has all the amino acids because that's one of the selling points when you're actually on a vegan diet, or you have some days where you are on a vegan diet. You want to get yourself in a state of partial amino acid depletion to get this beneficial effect of enhanced autophagy. And on intercellular toxins and so on.
Lisa: Right, so for certain periods of time, you want to do this, and it's a cycling thing, you don't want to be completely deficient of aminos for too long because then your body will start to break down.
Dr Elena: This is what I do personally as well. So, during the week, so I am a fan of cattle/carnivore diet. So, this diet is quite comfortable for me and I enjoyed it quite a lot. But then during my week I try to have some days where I'm either vegetarian or vegan, just because I want to have those benefits.
Lisa: Yeah. Up and down. And then this seems to be a theme in biology all the time is that it's not one thing. It's not staying on keto for ever and ever, amen. It's about doing cyclic keto or cyclic vegan and it’s cyclic. And our body loves this push and pull—when there’s recovery and there’s growth and then clean up phase, growth clean up. So autophagy can be activated through fasting. It can also be active through having resveratrol and upregulating the sirtuin 1 gene, how else can we activate autophagy?
Dr Elena: So there are different ways, there are different things you can really implement in order to activate autophagy. And I think that it all has to do with how you build your lifestyle in general. So, I think that in order for your body to function properly, you really need to have a kind of a healthy routine in general. And an analogy that I can give you there is that there are people that would buy a couple of supplements, and then they would be so proud of it. And then they would say, ‘Oh, yeah, but I'm taking those supplements now, and I'm so healthy’. And then their biorhythms are all off. They sleep at 5am every day. And they're eating crappy foods or super processed foods.
Lisa: Yeah, it’s not going to work.
Dr Elena: It’s all good. So, I think that when it comes to being healthy and activating your autophagy levels and having a healthy lifestyle in general, you need to start with the basics first.
So, the intermittent fasting is definitely the first step to take in order to become a bit healthier. And from the research that I'm reading, and from the things that I'm implementing, I definitely believe that both anecdotal and scientific evidence point towards the fact that intermittent fasting is actually the way to go. I mean, there are conflicting opinions out there and there are pros and cons in every diet, and so on. And I get that. But I personally believe that with intermittent fasting, if you try to narrow down the window where you're uptaking food, this is very, very good for you. So, this is step number one.
But then again, so either you're trying to raise your NAD levels, or you're trying to activate your autophagy, because those pathways are quite intertwined. And what you eventually want to do is you want to have increased levels of sirtuin, and sirtuin 1 in particular, and sirtuin 3, of course, and so on. And for this reason, in order to preserve this pool of NAD that is available for the sirtuin 1 to activate itself and activate the autophagy pathway.
Another small tip that I can give is to actually avoid sunlight, which is something that people don't really consider. But what happens when we're exposed to sunlight, when our skin is exposed to sunlight for prolonged periods of time, we start getting the DNA damage. And when you get the DNA damage, you have PARP activation, and then again, you NAD pool...
Lisa: Wow. I never connected those dots. That's really interesting. So, because—I mean, we need sun. We need sun for vitamin D and for our mood and all that sort of stuff. So, you're not saying don't have any sun.
Dr Elena: Yeah, sure.
Lisa: But because the sun is causing DNA damage, it's going to cause more PARP activation, it’s going to have the sirtuin genes going to repair the DNA, that's going to use up the body's resources is what you're saying.
Okay, wow, that makes sense. Makes sense. And then by the same token, like things like smoking that breaks DNA, like no tomorrow. This is why smoking ages you is because of all the DNA breaks. And this is why, when you're in the sun for hours every day, you get wrinkly skin and you get collagen lost and all the rest of the things that are happening. So, anything that's going to be causing DNA breaks is going to cause you to age quicker.
Dr Elena: Exactly.
Lisa: Using up the resources basically. Wow, okay.
Dr Elena: So it's obviously—you don't have to become a vampire and dissipate walk in the sun when you want to go somewhere. But sunbathing for hours is definitely not something you want to do with—to get your body go through, basically. So that's another tip.
And then something else, really, really simple that can be implemented on a daily basis in order to maintain your sirtuin levels, and as a result, your autophagy levels, and your NAD levels is also to take a tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil, which contains oleic acid. And it basically does the same job as resveratrol. And it's interesting—I think that there's been a recent research article out that shows that like oleic acid might even be more efficient than resveratrol, in terms of activating sirtuin 1, which I think it's really, really cool.
Lisa: So yeah. Well, combine the two. I do.
Dr Elena: Yeah, absolutely. You can do that. And then, you need to make sure that the extra virgin olive oil is actually of a very good quality because there is a bunch of...
Lisa: There is a bunch of rubbish out there. So, make sure it's from an orchard that you know, it's cold pressed, it's all those extra virgin, it's all that sort of good stuff. And not—how do they do it with solvents and stuff? Or that it's come from multiple orchards and being cut with other oils. It's a really, really important point. And then oleic acid does so much good things in the body. But isn’t that fat, Elena? Like lots of people are like, in their minds are going, ‘But oil is fat. It’s the same with MCT oil. Isn’t that going to make you fat when you eat fat’? Just going to put that around.
Dr Elena: There are good fats and there are bad fats. So, olive oil is good fat. MCT oil is a good fat. Avocado is a good fat. So, not all thoughts are made equal. So, this is definitely something important to keep in mind, especially with a good quality extra virgin olive oil.
Lisa: Because each one of our cells is a membrane that has a phospholipid, isn't it? So we need that, actually, this building of ourselves into the integrity.
Dr Elena: We have a phospholipid layer in the brain as well. And this is why we actually supplement with omega 3 fatty acids, because this is what it does. So, this is what omega 3 fatty acids do. They go into the phospholipid membrane, and then they basically...
Lisa: Make the integrity of that membrane better.
Dr Elena: Yeah, they contribute to the healthy phospholipid layer in the brain.
Lisa: So that's why it's very important for neurodegeneration to have omega 3s going in and again, people get quality omega 3s. Not your cheap supermarket ones that are perhaps oxidised and have been sitting on the shelves for six months. So really important to get a reputable source here. And omega 3 is of course in fishes as well, and krill, and so on.
Okay, so but is there a downside to fat? Because I studied epigenetics and a lot of people's profiles come back with don't have too many fats. And it's been one of those things in my head is like ‘Why would some people not come back with you shouldn't have too much fat’? I mean, there are things like gall bladders been removed. That's a pretty specific thing. But is there a genetic component? And probably not your wheelhouse, really, but is there a genetic component to your ability to process fat?
Dr Elena: There is a genetic component, and I've actually seen this with a family that has a history of very problematic digestion of fat, and so on. Absolutely. But yeah, again, not all fats are made the same. And when you cut off the bad fats from your life, things change and everything changes really.
Lisa: Yeah, it really is very satiating, too to have a little bit of fat and that can really help with cravings and blood sugar spikes—we're getting off topic.
So you have a company, NMN Bio, which produces nicotinamide mononucleotide supplement. And you've got a whole range of other stuff coming as well. Why did you decide like, you need to get this out there on the market? Based on your research and your knowledge around this area, why is it important that people take NMN if they're serious about slowing aging?
Dr Elena: So first of all, I came across the biology of NAD and NMN during my PhD studies and my research kind of led me into this field because I was studying autophagy neurodegeneration. And actually, I still cannot disclose my research.
Lisa: Yeah, it’s not published yet.
Dr Elena: My research paper from my PhD is not published yet, but hopefully soon, so we're about to submit it quite soon actually. So for this reason, I started studying the biology of NAD and I actually saw how important and how crucial NAD is to the cell and what happens when we have a lack of NAD and depletion of NAD pools in the cell. And I've been supplementing with different kinds of vitamins and supplements my whole life really. So, I was watching closely this space for a while, and I was taking different supplements myself for a while.
And so, when I came across NMN and I realised that actually there is this strategy where we can supplement with a precursor in order to increase our energy levels, I found it really, really interesting. And I thought to give it a go myself and try it out and see the results. And then what shocked me was that the immediate effect of the supplement—so within a few days, you can already feel a difference in your energy levels and your focus. And this comes from the fact that sirtuins are responsible for so many molecular processes in the cell. And this is why you have this effect, including the mitochondrial biogenesis, which gives you basically increased ATP, consequently.
Lisa: You get actually more mitochondria. So, like, if you got heart disease...
Dr Elena: The production of more mitochondria, and then they produce more ATP as a result. And then you have this magic energy, yeah. This is why I thought to bring this product into the market. And the other reason was that there was not enough reliable suppliers on the market, which is crazy, because it's actually quite a popular supplement. It's been on the rise, the interest was rising for the past couple of years, but what we're seeing is there is a lot of white labelling companies that don't offer any certificates of analysis and so on. And also, you have even big companies not offering proper certificates of analysis, which was me like, it was…
Yeah, I don't understand. You have a big company, and you have just the purity report from like, 18 months ago, and you don't have any other analysis, such as heavy metals, or pH or microorganisms. So, the consumer is actually not confident in buying from you. And I wanted to deliver the best quality for myself and my family. And then I said, ‘Wait a minute. This is not done, right’. And this is why I launched the company because I wanted a company that was completely transparent. And I even say it on the website, that if you're interested in finding out who our suppliers are, and so on, and have any questions about our supply chain, just feel free to reach out to me. And I would be happy to disclose all of those things.
There are other companies that you can't find any registration number, or who the founder is, and so on. And it's quite confusing, really, because like you— you don't know who you deal with.
Lisa: This is the same with the whole supplement industry. On the one hand, it's good that it's not regulated by the FDA, and whoever else, there are authorities around the world. Because like, then—they are turned into the pharmaceutical industry, which don't get me started. But on the other hand, there's not enough regulation around the quality control.
And one of the things when I was searching for NMNs, searching the world for it, I had to go overseas and import it to friends in America and get it out of there. And this is why I like—was super excited to discover your work. And then, we've since now made it available down here. So, we're going to branch down here in New Zealand for New Zealand, Australia. And I wanted someone who I could trust, who has all the scientific knowledge behind it, there's all lab tests, etc. And that was really important for me for quality.
Just on a side note. So I've been taking NMN now for—I think—so five, close to six months. I've had a massive weight loss and so as my mum. Why would that be? Like, I didn't take it for weight loss. I wasn't overweight, per se. But I had a couple of kilos that I was quite clear to get rid of. And what I've noticed—because I'm an athlete, that's my background—I haven't lost an ounce of muscle, which has been really awesome because most people are struggling to keep muscle mass, lose fat mass. My mum has lost 11 kilos. And she is of a genetic body type that really struggles with weight loss. She's conservation metabolism, from a genetic point of view, very, very hard for her to lose weight. So, I've never seen this in the history of her entire life, since I've been around. The weights just dropped off her.
Is this some sort of upregulation in the metabolic pathways? Is it improving the insulin resistance? What's it doing there to cause such weight loss without muscle loss?
Dr Elena: Well, in my study so far, there's definitely evidence that it does improve insulin sensitivity, and it also improves the lipid metabolism profile. So those two are very important. And unfortunately, we don't have those studies in humans yet. But more clinical studies are on the way, and hopefully we'll have very good results this year with the NMN besides the safety studies that we already have in humans.
So in mice, what we're seeing is that there is basically a reverse of type two diabetes, which is really impressive. And if you want to correlate this data into humans somehow, I would say that, obviously, I'm not a medical doctor, and this is not a medical advice, but I would say that it does have to do something with the metabolism, and it basically improves the way your body metabolises everything. And...
Lisa: Worth trying and there's no downside to NMN. There's no, it's a vitamin B derivative, well then you will say to me, ‘Well, can I just take B3 and be done’? and it's like, no, it doesn't work like that, which should be a lot cheaper.
Dr Elena: That’s the other impressive thing about this compound is that it actually doesn't have, if any, side effects at all. So even in studies with mice, where the dosage that they use in mice is actually much higher than it is in the one that we usually have in humans. So, for instance, if someone would take 500 mg, or one gram of NMN per day in humans. And then in mice studies, they use something like 200 mg per kilogram of weight, which is much, much more, and it still doesn't have any side effects.
Lisa: Does it mean that we need higher dosages? Like in the human, or has it only been tested to one gram and why has it not been tested higher, if that's the case?
Dr Elena: No, I think that there are studies underway for this as well. So eventually, we will find what is the ideal dosage for humans. I think that from anecdotal evidence, people can already see results from 500 mg or one gram and so on. There are people that take more. So, some biohackers say that they take two grams or four grams, and is still very well tolerated. But yeah, so far, it does not produce any side effects in terms of…
Lisa: Any downside.
Dr Elena: Basically. And, for instance, for myself, my stomach is quite sensitive. So, when I'm on an empty stomach, I can't take vitamin C or caffeine and I get nauseous and so on. And this is not the case with an NMN. So, I can take it first. It is very well tolerated on an empty stomach, very mild. I really love it. There’s so many reasons to love it.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have my morning and night. So, I'm on a gram a day. And is there any reason not to take it at night? So I split the dose—reasoning, thinking, keeping the levels up?
Dr Elena: I mean, I would probably take it all in the morning, I think. There's been a study out that it can affect the circadian rhythms as well. And interestingly, it actually affects NMN—sorry—NAD levels affects the circadian rhythm. But it's not the other way around. So, NAD actually dictates the circadian rhythm in the body. So, for this reason, I would suggest to take it in the morning because then your whole body synchronise, then you wake up and you tell to your body that look, it's the morning now, and we're going to have increased NAD level.
Lisa: Increase. Ohh okay. So, okay, I got that wrong. I haven't noticed that I've had worse sleep or anything like that, or any rhythm has been out. But I would definitely swap to doing—my thinking process around that was keeping the tissue saturated over a 24-hour period, as opposed to all at once and then perhaps dropping, but I don't know. What is the half-life of it? Do you know? Is there any sort of evidence around that?
Dr Elena: I actually, not sure. No, no.
Lisa: There’s no evidence yet. And so yeah, there's a ton of studies still being done that are currently, like this year, like going to be coming out, which is going to be really exciting. So that we're going to get more evidence. I mean, there's this stuff that I've been reading around fertility in animal studies, and they're starting to do human studies, which I personally am very interested in, in reversing aging of the ovaries and even with... I mean, the mice study was incredible around fertility, where the mice were postmenopausal, they actually knocked off any existing eggs with chemotherapy. And then gave them NMN and the mice went on to have babies. And there was a whole study.
Dr Elena: This is why I get so excited about NMN and this is why it's my first product because frankly speaking as a scientist, I've never seen results like that with a natural compound.
Lisa: No?
Dr Elena: Because there is a bunch of natural compounds out there, there is a bunch of other supplements. And what we're talking about spermidine the other day...
Lisa: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Dr Elena: ...another autophagy activator. Quite an interesting supplement, yes. By the way, it's also an mTOR, independent autophagy activator, which is good.
Lisa: Another very good reason to take that as well. And we were looking into that aren’t we, Elena about adding that?
Dr Elena: Yeah, absolutely. We will look into this, but again, you don't see results, like the ones that you see with NMN in multiple studies from other compounds, it's really fascinating.
Lisa: Wow, so yeah, so there are other products that are going to... And this is a super exciting thing, like were our grandparents or our parents even didn't get the chance, like, with aging was aging, and there was nothing that you really could do to influence how fast you aged. They weren't aware of it. And later on, it's become well, if you eat better and you exercise a little bit more and you stop smoking and, and stuff, you’ll age slower. But now we're taking exponential leaps in our knowledge.
I mean, I fell into this realm when I was reading Dr David Sinclair's book, who is a very prominent scientist at Harvard Medical School, and made his book, Lifespan, which I totally recommend people reading. I was just like, ‘Oh my gosh, if I can stay healthy now’, because I'm 52, ‘if I can stay like, really, in top shape for another 10 years, by then we're going to have stuff that will help me live really long’. And that really excites me. And not just live long, but live healthier.
Dr Elena: That’s the important part. The important part is not to just increase your age, it’s to increase your health span. So, the time that you're spending being healthy. And what you're referring to is actually called the aging escape velocity, where basically we’ll have more advanced research coming in every year of our lives. And this will eventually expand our lifespan, which is amazing. And I also think that if we preserve ourselves well, we might as well see this in our lifetimes, which will be amazing.
Lisa: Absolutely. And I want another few decades, please. Listening to Dave Asprey, who by far, got...
Dr Elena: I want another like, few hundreds.
Lisa: Yeah, well, I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous right now. But if you listen to Dave Asprey saying conservatively, and Dr. David Sinclair, too, like, conservatively, we could live to 150, 180, and beyond. Then once they crack the code, and they're actually able to turn the cells back to which they are working on right now. And which they can actually go in the petri dish, from what I understand like with skin cells and make them immortal. And they can't do it in humans because it's too risky, they could turn you into a tumour and stuff. But with the Yamanaka factors that were discovered a decade or so ago, they're actually able to turn the clock back to the point of you being a 20-year-old again. And this is like, ‘Wow, this is pretty exciting. Being able to regrow nerves, spinal injuries, people who have gone blind from macular degeneration’ — all of these things are coming down the line. This is very, very exciting.
Dr Elena: There are several advancements in this field. So, as I said, my PhD is also in stem cell biology. So, I was working with human embryonic stem cells in the lab, and what they can do on a dish is just mind blowing. Because what I was able to do was to take human embryonic stem cells, and then dictate their fate, basically, with different growth factors, and then differentiate them into neural precursors at first. And then to push them further in order to become terminally differentiated neurons. And like four weeks later, you basically have a human brain in a dish and it's a primary human cells. And it's an amazing, physiological irrelevant human platform as well to study disease. And this is what I was doing during my PhD.
So, I’ve seen it with my own eyes. And every time I would do, I would go through this process, I would differentiate the human embryonic stem cells into neurons. It would be as exciting as the first time because of what it represents, because it does represent the progress that we've made so far. And I personally started human embryonic stem cells for the sake of drug discovery. So, I wasn't interested—my project was not focusing on different therapeutic applications. However, I know that there are many advancements in this field as well. So, we do have clinics in America, where you can have a total body rejuvenation, stem cells, and so on. And this technology is definitely advancing.
And I've been actually thinking about the application of this for myself. So as you know, I recently had a dental injury. This is something to keep in mind for the future. So perhaps in the near future, I can just inject myself with a bit of a stem cells there...
Lisa: And that’s already happening to a degree. I mean, I've got a doctor friend up north, who's doing stem cell replacement for joints, and so on, for degenerative joints. Because stem cells, basically, for people who don't understand why this is important. The stem cell is the original like cell, but before it decides, ‘Am I going to become a skin cell, or a neuron or a liver cell’, it differentiates. So, it's a pluripotent stem cell, it can become anything. And so, in the lab setting, you're going to be able to say, ‘Well I want your cell to become a liver cell’. Will we eventually be able to grow organs that can be used for transplantation? Is that sort of one of the end goals?
Dr Elena: Absolutely. And it's already been done with some organs. So for instance, I've heard that there is a research group that basically 3D-printed a functional thyroid gland from stem cells.
Lisa: Wow. 3D-printed. So, the printer gets these differentiated cells somehow, and then makes it into a functioning organ that they will eventually—they're going to be able to actually transplant this into people and save the whole organ donation, horrific troubles that we have currently.
Dr Elena: Yeah, exactly and I think that we're not too far away from this from whole organs being recreated in the lab. We already are able to actually do a 3D culture in the lab and create the so called organoids. So for instance, from stem cells, you can do a brain organoid, where you have a liposphere and it basically consists of different kinds of cells that you see in the brain. So it would have neurons, it would have glial, it will have astrocytes, and then it would have this brain organoid and then you can study it.
So, we're already getting there. We’re close, we’re much closer than we thought we were 20 years ago. And I think that we're not far away from having different kinds of organs being grown in the lab for transplants and so on.
Lisa: Hopefully not our brains because it's the seed of who we are. Honestly reading Dr Sinclair's book, I was like, ‘Am I in a Star Trek movie or something’? because it is pretty, pretty amazing. But when you do this, you also ask that to understand the whole process and how the whole thing functions, and then you can actually really slow down neurodegeneration and optimise things.
And so the NMN that we're talking about right now is the beginning of this really exciting road, which we're going to be staying abreast of. And hopefully adding to what we have available to the consumer right now for prices that are not moon money, that it's out of anybody's reach, but actually what you can do today so that you can preserve your health. So that in 10 years’ time, when the real crazy stuff starts coming on line, you'll be able to live longer and healthier lives. And that's the whole goal of it.
So before we just wrap up, I just wanted to reiterate again, so how is autophagy—can you just put that—how is autophagy related to NAD and sirtuin genes? Can you just put that two pieces together again, just repeat that a little bit?
Dr Elena: Sure. So basically, what happens is that you do need autophagy to recycle different damaged organelles in the cell when something goes wrong. So, and this is quite prominent in neurodegeneration because the reason we have—let's say, aggregate from proteins in neurons and dysfunctional mitochondria and so on is because neurons are terminally differentiated cells. This means that they don't divide anymore. So, they rely on autophagy in order to have their housekeeping function because they can't divide the junk away. Okay. So that's the reason why autophagy is important in terminally differentiated cells such as neurons.
Lisa: So there's no hay flick limit for a neuron. There is just only one—when a neuron becomes a neuron, that's a neuron. Okay.
Dr Elena: Yeah, yeah. And then that's it. And what happens with the activation of autophagy, one of the signals is—comes through sirtuin 1, which basically can activate the transcription factors that are related to autophagy activation, which is the TFEB transcription factor, EB and FOXO, which are basically influenced the activation of autophagy. And more specifically, the mitophagy as well. So, mitophagy is the arm of autophagy that is responsible for the mitochondrial clearance in the cell.
Lisa: Yep, so mitochondria, just for people, are the powerhouses of the cell. This is where a lot of—so all of the energy is produced, if you like. And so, this is why mitophagy, as opposed to autophagy, so mitophagy is doing the same process, but within the mitochondria to keep your mitochondria healthy. And if your mitochondria are not healthy, and they're dying, and you're not having enough mitochondria in your cells, then you are going to be sick. And that could be heart disease, it could be neurodegeneration, that could be anything. So, keeping your mitochondria healthy is the basis of all bloody disease, blatantly.
Dr Elena: Yeah, exactly. So then, if you have impaired autophagy in the cell, and then you also have some sort of DNA damage going on, such as the one from reactive oxygen species, for example. And then what you have is the activation of the PARP enzymes. And PARP enzymes heavily rely on NAD levels in the cell in order to function. And NAD is also a substrate for the sirtuin genes that are responsible for also regulating a bunch of very healthy, a bunch of processes in the healthy cell. And for this reason, if you do have increased activation of PARPS, you will eventually get this NAD drain out of the cell. And this will not be enough in order for the sirtuins to function properly. And this will also deplete your autophagy. So, both NAD levels and autophagy are important to the cell. And fortunately for us, we can actually replenish the levels of NAD by supplementing with an ad precursor such as an NMN.
Lisa: Okay, and so NMN has been proven to be by most of our bio available, because there's also like nicotinamide riboside which is used in a number of supplement companies that I know have nicotinamide riboside, but not many, there are some now, but have nicotinamide mononucleotide. Nicotinamide riboside is also a great molecule, but it's two steps away from becoming NAD. As long as it’s available.
Dr Elena: Yeah, so nicotinamide riboside needs to be phosphorylated and fast converted to nicotinamide mononucleotide first. And then this will enter the cell and then this will increase the levels of NAD in the cell. And for this reason—so first, this area of research was focusing on the NR molecule, the nicotinamide riboside. But then when they started studying NMN, they actually saw that there is increased bioavailability and there is increased levels of energy that come after supplementation with NMN.
Lisa: Can you take—because NAD is a molecule, you cannot just take it as a capsule, and then it's all good to go. Can you take it as an infusion because I have heard of NAD infusions. I mean, it’s not available here.
Dr Elena: Well, and I'm curious myself about this, and I haven't done it, I haven't tested it. And from what I've seen—so the concentration of NAD in those intravenous injections is quite low. And I think that the same way that we have many opportunistic companies in the supplement field, we also have many opportunistic clinics that offer this kind of treatments. So, again, this is not something that I have studied in depth, and I actually don't know how much will it help. But yeah, I mean, this is another way to boost NAD, I guess, and you can try it out.
But with oral administration of NMN, we do have evidence that it can boost the levels of NAD in the tissue and in liver tissue and muscle tissue, and so on. And also, it's much easier to do and it's obviously much cheaper because those injections cost a lot.
Lisa: Yes, yeah. Just one last question in relation to antioxidants, because I mean 10 years ago or so we used to think our reactive oxygen species ,oxidative stress happens through the electron transport chain. When we're metabolising, and so on, we get all these oxidative stresses and free radicals running around. And if we take antioxidants, we're going to be counterbalancing that. Does supplementing with antioxidants, like vitamin D, like glutathione, like vitamin C, and so on, alpha lipoic acid, is that going to contribute, too, to the slowing of aging, because it's going to down regulate the PARP enzymes?
Dr Elena: People were very optimistic about antioxidants, something like 20 years ago. And everyone was talking about it and so on. But actually, the big studies that have been done, have shown that by taking antioxidants, you actually do not suppress aging. And there are some biomarkers that might have changed in those studies. But most of the biomarkers that they measure stay the same. Basically, saying that antioxidant is not the...
Lisa: Not the holy grail.
Dr Elena: ...that everyone was thinking about.
Lisa: Was hoping, yeah. Not to say that antioxidants don't have their place because they definitely do. Especially if you have a lot of oxidative stress, and you need to, like with vitamin C, if you're infected, or—I've done a whole series on vitamin C. But then it's not the holy grail for stopping the aging process, but it probably does help with not having so much PARP activation. I don't know, as a non-scientific brain, I'm just connecting dots.
Okay, so I think it's probably we've— so from a lifestyle intervention, apart from taking NMN and resveratrol, and oleic acid or olive oil, intermittent fasting, is there anything else that we can add to our anti-aging regime on a lifestyle intervention side?
Dr Elena: Intermittent fasting, and then avoid exposure to sunlight, as we said. And sirtuin genes are being activated from any kind of stress. And what we can do is we can also induce some sort of an artificial stress, which could be done, let's say with cryotherapy. This is what cryotherapy does. When you're exposed to cold, you also have this stress signal that activates sirtuins, or the other way around, so you can try out a sauna. And this will also have the same effect. So, I think this is also something to keep in mind.
Lisa: Breathing, breathing. So, sort of tumour breathing, or, like what one half does all of that sort of stuff. So, there’s hormetic stressors, there’s exercise obviously, that cause a cascade of changes and make you stronger. And yeah, it's sort of a balancing act. You don't want to be doing exercise for Africa or really freezing yourself to death, but you just want to have a little stress to cause a change in the body. So these hormetic stressors can be very, very helpful.
Okay, well, I think we've covered a very, very, very complex topic and I hope we didn't lose everybody on the way. But at the end of the day, take NMN, take resveratrol, take olive oil, do your exercise, get in the sauna, if you have a chance to do cold therapy, do that as well. Get your exercise, get your antioxidants in there as well, to a certain degree and you're going to be able to live long enough but until other things come online, and you'll be able to improve everything.
Dr Elena: Sounds good.
Lisa: Brilliant. So Dr. Elena, thank you very much. Dr. Elena has been on the show, NMN Bio. So we have nmnbio.co.uk in UK and in Europe, and nmnbio.nz if you're down at this end of the world. We'd love to help you over the air. If you've got any other questions, please reach out to us. And thanks very much for being here today. It's been really exciting.
Dr Elena: Thank you, Lisa, thank you so much for having me.
That's it this week for Pushing the Limits. Be sure to rate review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com
The information contained in this show is not medical advice it is for educational purposes only and the opinions of guests are not the views of the show. Please seed your own medical advice from a registered medical professional.